Comments on A Spiritual Diablog: Forgiveness: They Know Not What They Do. Post #4

I think labels play a very big part in this univer...

2005-09-02T17:56:00.000-04:00

I think labels play a very big part in this universe. Sort of the name it clam it type things. If we can just stop judging, Then perhaps the world will be a better place.

If one dies no matter how they die, to me it is their time to part.

Lynne: Quite the philosopher now, aren't we? (In t...

2005-09-02T11:46:00.000-04:00

Lynne: Quite the philosopher now, aren't we? (In the interest of full disclosure, Lynne is my baby sister, as you can plainly see from her photo. She's really very precocious.)

Your first couple paragraphs convince me. Very concise but I don't see any argument against your view here that the idea that we really choose at all is nothing we can know for sure. It's simply not possible to demonstrate that we really could have done anything different at that time. You can't go back and do it differently to prove it! And simply having the feeling that you could have acted differently - that's no proof...

Why some of us experience a more powerful calling toward God, goodness, justice... if in reality, the situation is this, and not choice... I don't know...

I'm not even sure that choice actually exists. I m...

2005-09-02T11:07:00.000-04:00

I'm not even sure that choice actually exists.

I may think that I'm laboring over a difficult moral decision, right vs. wrong. Finally, I make my "choice". But I can only do ONE thing. The notion that I *could* have done something else is there, but it's never materialized in reality. It's only in my mind as a concept.

After events have unfolded and the future has revealed itself, I can look back with regret and wish I had done things differently. Or I can take personal pride in having done the "right" thing. But at the time when the so called choice was made, I did the only thing I could do given my knowledge, abilities, spiritual development, etc.

I don't know that any of us ever could have done things differently. Thinking about things this way makes me want to reevaluate my ideas about fate and destiny: Concepts that I've always been resistant to in the past. Because if you take away choice, then it would seem that we have to impact on where we are headed. And I don't think that is the case.

Hmmmm. I guess I'm thinking out loud, here. But if choice doesn't actually exist then forgiveness becomes completely unecessary. All is forgiven before it happens. That's kind of cool. But I don't like the loss of free will that it implies.

What if there were something else besides choice - a willingness to turn towards God? A spirit of cooperation with Life, Nature - whatever your higher power of choice may be. Maybe that's how we impact the world? Is that a choice? I don't think so. More like a calling?

Hi Shyloh: I think you've been very fortunate if y...

2005-09-01T20:17:00.000-04:00

Hi Shyloh: I think you've been very fortunate if you haven't had anyone but yourself to forgive.

Sounds like you're saying that the idea of sin has no meaning because people don't always agree on what sin is.

Although it's true there's not 100% agreement, I think the basic idea of sin is clear: that we can do wrong to others as well as ourselves. Harm-doing - this would be the essential meaning, whether or not one wants to use that particular word, "sin," which has overtones of belief systems that certainly not everyone agrees with.

Murder would be only the most obvious example of harm-doing over which there is pretty much universal agreement.

What is sin anyway? Whatis sin to one man is not s...

2005-09-01T20:02:00.000-04:00

What is sin anyway? Whatis sin to one man is not sin to another.

We only have to forgive ourself. For there is no other to forgive.

What is sin anyway? Whatis sin to one man is not s...

2005-09-01T20:01:00.000-04:00

What is sin anyway? Whatis sin to one man is not sin to another.

We only have to forgive ourself. For there is no other to forgive.

Motherdear: Thanks. I wonder why my blog is in the...

2005-08-31T13:38:00.000-04:00

Motherdear: Thanks. I wonder why my blog is in the "dramatic" category? I do appreciate it anyway, but maybe I can also try to write more... DRAMATICALLY...

Good morning, Paul! It is my pleasure to inform yo...

2005-08-31T11:50:00.000-04:00

Good morning, Paul! It is my pleasure to inform you that your site has been nominated by your peers at the Order of Brilliant Bloggers for a “Brilliant” award for superior blogging this month. Congratulations!!! The Order of Brilliant Bloggers is a site dedicated to the recognition of excellent blogging by other excellent bloggers.

Please feel free to visit at http://mdskidsrbrilliant.blogspot.com and nominate and vote for other noteworthy blogsites and posts! And again, congratulations!

Thought and humor: I think you mean: A) people are...

2005-08-31T10:41:00.000-04:00

Thought and humor: I think you mean: A) people are different. True - but hopefully there are enough similarities that the world can figure out what they are and become a little less chaotic. B)people go throught different stages and processes, change over time. Also true, although through all this, certain qualities can remain amazingly stable. C) Thanks for agreeing with my compliment to my readers, but no, I'm not forgetting God. I didn't mean to suggest that I place my readers above God, lol! D) Not sure I follow your last paragraph. Thanks for the interesting commentary.

Goddess: You're hedging your bet, lol!

"Goddess - A question: Do those who intend great m...

2005-08-31T08:35:00.000-04:00

"Goddess - A question: Do those who intend great malice comprehend the implications of their malice in the same way that you or I would comprehend them?"

Probably not. But again, it depends on the individual.

We work like a horse.We eat like a pig.We like to ...

2005-08-30T21:55:00.000-04:00

We work like a horse.
We eat like a pig.
We like to play chicken.
You can get someone's goat.
We can be as slippery as a snake.
We get dog tired.
We can be as quiet as a mouse.
We can be as quick as a cat.
Some of us are as strong as an ox.
People try to buffalo others.
Some are as ugly as a toad.
We can be as gentle as a lamb.
Sometimes we are as happy as a lark.
Some of us drink like a fish.
We can be as proud as a peacock.
A few of us are as hairy as a gorilla.
You can get a frog in your throat.
We can be a lone wolf.
But I'm having a whale of a time!

You have a riveting web log
and undoubtedly must have
atypical & quiescent potential
for your intended readership.
May I suggest that you do
everything in your power to
honor your encyclopedic/omniscient
Designer/Architect as well
as your revering audience.
As soon as we acknowledge
this Supreme Designer/Architect,
Who has erected the beauteous
fabric of the universe, our minds
must necessarily be ravished with
wonder at this infinate goodness,
wisdom and power.

Please remember to never
restrict anyone's opportunities
for ascertaining uninterrupted
existence for their quintessence.

There is a time for everything,
a season for every activity
under heaven. A time to be
born and a time to die. A
time to plant and a time to
harvest. A time to kill and
a time to heal. A time to
tear down and a time to
rebuild. A time to cry and
a time to laugh. A time to
grieve and a time to dance.
A time to scatter stones
and a time to gather stones.
A time to embrace and a
time to turn away. A time to
search and a time to lose.
A time to keep and a time to
throw away. A time to tear
and a time to mend. A time
to be quiet and a time to
speak up. A time to love
and a time to hate. A time
for war and a time for peace.

Best wishes for continued ascendancy,
Dr. Howdy

P.S. One thing of which I am sure is
that the common culture of my youth
is gone for good. It was hollowed out
by the rise of ethnic "identity politics,"
then splintered beyond hope of repair
by the emergence of the web-based
technologies that so maximized and
facilitated cultural choice as to make
the broad-based offerings of the old
mass media look bland and unchallenging
by comparison."

J: Yes, there's the hurt, and then the ego takes o...

2005-08-30T21:27:00.000-04:00

J: Yes, there's the hurt, and then the ego takes over and keeps reminding us of it - like Kathy, I think that's a good description of the essential process.

What about when the hurt keeps coming? I think that's the toughest. "This too shall pass," "Time heals all things" - but when the actual harm continues to accrue... I've wondered sometimes how torture victims who are permanently and severely disabled, and perhaps left with lifelong physical pain, deal with forgiving.

This would be still more extreme, at least psychologically, than what I'm dealing with, but it's the closest analogy I can think of to my very unusual circumstances. And although I don't consciously dwell on those who caused the harm, they are like a background presence in my day to day life that most days does come into the foreground briefly at least once or twice.

MJ: You remind me that to me, there's no simple "list of sins." Lists and commandments are great and important general guidelines, but I always think of a Cambodian boy I knew when I taught ESL. He described how he used to steal rice, at the risk of his life, to help his family survive the Khmer Rouge slave labor camp. Here is stealing that is sin in no sense whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned.

I agree: ignorance... learning from experience, having it alleviated a bit... always more ignorance and more learning... that would be the essential process of getting further away from spiritual hurt.

in the above context, "sinning" and reaping the eq...

2005-08-30T20:18:00.000-04:00

in the above context, "sinning" and reaping the equivalent karma (which is often misconstrued as punishment)... is not a *bad* thing per se, but a learning process for all of us. something that can make us all better, more humane, and more enlightened persons.

this reminds me of a recent incident i heard about...

2005-08-30T20:10:00.000-04:00

this reminds me of a recent incident i heard about. a 15-year-old kid tried to hold up an internet cafe not far from where i live. (i was concerned because I myself own an internet cafe and there have been thefts in our own shop.)

anyway, the attempt was foiled when the owner, who happened to be a policeman, came to the shop unexpectedly and caught the teenager, and then proceeded to beat him up until he was black and blue. (#*@!!) this may be shocking but it's third world reality. then it was later revealed that the teenager's mom was in the hospital and they had no money, so the kid thought of robbing a shop.

speaking generally, there's "sin" involved in robbing (and in every wrongdoing) but there too is motivation for the action. the motivation may be "noble," or it maybe petty and egoic. in either case, there are bound to be repercussions for the "sinner," for we always reap what we sow. at times, the "sinner" may be ignorant that he did something wrong, but this doesn't excuse him. he will get his karma, which is inescapable. and i believe he will keep on "sinning," or more accurately, committing acts borne out of ignorance...until he learns his lesson and chooses a more enlightened course of action. ignorance here is a broad term that not only means "not knowing," but also transgressing against the highest Laws of all, which are universal, and which include love, compassion, kindness, respect for others and for life.

what the voice just said rings truth for me too. I...

2005-08-30T18:57:00.000-04:00

what the voice just said rings truth for me too. I think its natural for most humans to feed the i -the ego. It's pretty much in our nature right? going against whats natural is very hard.

personally Paul, I think we get wrapped up in our ...

2005-08-30T11:36:00.000-04:00

personally Paul, I think we get wrapped up in our own experience of the hurt and then ego takes over - it's tough to forgive when our ego i reminding us of the hurt involved - Time really helps to dull the ego's spin on hurt - this is what I have found.

J

Bonita: You raise important questions I think. Wha...

2005-08-30T10:43:00.000-04:00

Bonita: You raise important questions I think. What is "self interest?" Is it identical with egoic interests?

"It all starts with thinking..." To me, some things start with thinking; certain chains of thinking/feeling/acting... But I might be inclined to view feeling and emotion as generally more basic.

G-Fish: That's really where I lean on that one too. Imagining someone choosing evil as evil with the full knowledge of why it's evil - it's like imagining Buddha after his enlightenment going, "Oh, the heck with this Buddha stuff. I'd really just like to find some easy scam for cheating people out of their money to get rich quick."

Of course this an extreme hypothetical, but in real life, I tend to think that to the degree people do wrong, they may fail to appreciate the real significance of their actions to themselves and others - otherwise, they wouldn't do them. What would be the point?

Michael: Right - we can't know the full consequences of our actions. In general though, I think there's a strong correlation between good intentions, or being well-motivated, and positive outcomes. But this fact you point to that the consequences of our actions and efforts are neither completely foreseeable nor under our complete control, is what makes us look at moral behavior in terms less of outcome than of motivation and intention. ("Did he mean to do it?", "Did she give it her best effort?" etc.)

I take your point about how conscious choice and ignorance may not be exclusive - that wrongdoing could in some sense be an outcome of both. Like you said, that could be a long discussion! (Same for your remarks concerning God...) Thanks for such a thoughtful comment.

Crystal, thanks! I kind of wondered when I wrote that if I could get the idea across...

Renee (P&W): Thanks for checking in and letting me "put you on the spot" about that one!

Kathy, I think you're right - a lot of people get hurt in the self-love area early in their lives. And also, as you suggest, that mental illness may come in more varieties than we generally acknowledge.

Goddess - A question: Do those who intend great malice comprehend the implications of their malice in the same way that you or I would comprehend them?

I appreciate all your smart comments. It's like my blog has some kind of "thoughtfulness filter," - except the spam once in a while...

My answer to your question is it depends on the pe...

2005-08-30T09:02:00.000-04:00

My answer to your question is it depends on the person doing the offense. I don't think there's a one-size fits all. We all have different motivations. Some people intend malice while others just make mistakes or don't know how they are affecting others.

[Jesus replied,] "Love the Lord your God with all ...

2005-08-30T04:03:00.000-04:00

[Jesus replied,] "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Mark 12:30-31

If we don't love ourselves...then how can we love others? or God for that matter?

Hi PaulI enjoy reading your blogs. Your questions ...

2005-08-30T03:18:00.000-04:00

Hi Paul
I enjoy reading your blogs. Your questions are really good. In answering your question, I like to think that most of the people who do bad and hurtful things to other beings are ignorant, not knowing what they do. These people don't love themselves...so how can they love others? I also believe in Mental illness in humans...mental illness comes in lots of forms.

Paul:I think some act om purpose, some are ignoran...

2005-08-30T02:19:00.000-04:00

Paul:
I think some act om purpose, some are ignorant.
I think I tend the most to: They do not know what they are doing.

Paul, you asked ... can a person have rational cl...

2005-08-30T01:58:00.000-04:00

Paul, you asked ... can a person have rational clarity about the consequences of his or her actions, yet still be profoundly ignorant - of inner meanings, of spiritual consequences.

Yes, I think I see what you mean. Maybe this is what Jesus meant when he said "they know not what they do" ... they knew they were executing someone, maybe even felt it was murder. But they probably discounted any spiritual consequences of that act.

either side could be argued ad nauseam without muc...

2005-08-30T01:38:00.000-04:00

either side could be argued ad nauseam without much insight into the main point. can we really know the full consequences of any of our actions, sins or not? who can predict the future? or it could be argued that each of us knows exactly what we are doing, similarly to doshar's comments. but as it comes to the issue of forgiveness, like you said Paul, leaning toward the "not know what you do" side definitely makes it easier to be a "free-gracer."

I'm finding more and more in life that some perceived dichotomies are in actuality a continuum that we have trouble conceptualizing because of our finite minds. here is one example: on one end of the spectrum, some people hold the view of God as the righteous, holy, sovereign Lord is to be revered and respected. on the other end, you have the view that God is your friend, your loving caring Father, that you can "hang out" with. then in the middle and at various points along the way are those that say God is the perfect balance of the two. I'm saying God is the entire spectrum all at once.

going back to the point- this issue about sin, whether or not it is the "conscious choice" or "not knowing what we do," could be one of those cases. that sin isn't one or the other or even a mix of the two, but entirely both at the same time. it could explain a few things (without entering a discussion over free will). I'll leave that open to discussion.

I can't think of a situation that would call for a...

2005-08-29T23:05:00.000-04:00

I can't think of a situation that would call for a complete abrogation of rightness in favor of complete wrongfulness, at least, not among rational beings. By the same token, any decision involving moral considerations is bound to have some degree of "wrongness" versus "rightness", if not in one persons eyes, then in the others. Many will pronounce judgement about some decision without knowing or considering themselves why the situation went the way that it did, which doesn't help matters. And for people who even consider the "right vs. wrong" angles of an action, I don't believe that many
would deliberately saddle themselves with
any more ethical burdens or regrets than
they absolutely had to, which tends to rule out deliberate evil in most cases. I
beleive that people make wrong decisions
more often because of unexamined options
or ignorance, than out of pure evil.

I assume that most people behave out of self-inter...

2005-08-29T22:16:00.000-04:00

I assume that most people behave out of self-interest, and sometimes that is laced with ignorance that leads to wrong doing. It is important to keep in mind that everything starts with thoughts - right thinking, which leads to careful action...hopefully.