Comments on A Spiritual Diablog: Forgiveness: Process & Strategy. Post #3

Doshar asks: do you know sometimes it is difficult...

2005-08-29T15:50:00.000-04:00

Doshar asks: do you know sometimes it is difficult to forgive your own self?

If it is easier to forgive a stranger than to forgive someone close to you, imagine how hard it is to forgive yourself -- the person closest of all!

When someone betrays you, hurts you, doesn't support you, etc. and you look at it very simply, they seem to be saying "You aren't worth very much." If we don't learn to accept our own strengths and weaknesses and forgive ourselves, then we are likely to believe this message when it comes to us through the insenstivity of others.

This (I think) is what Thich Nhat Hanh is referring to in his poem, at least in part.

Zahirah: Without knowing any of the particulars of...

2005-08-29T12:31:00.000-04:00

Zahirah: Without knowing any of the particulars of your situation, I guess I'd just say that in general, it seems best to take cues from kids themselves. In other words, when they're ready to start remembering things, they will, and that may be the best time to help them out with that.

Noblesse Oblige: Not sure I follow...

MJ: Maybe a little disjointed, but aren't we all! And I think you make a great point: that real forgivenes must come from out of inner peace or contentment with oneself.

Keshi: Yeah, self-forgiveness... Some others have brought that up, maybe it needs a seperate post...

I like wut Doshar stated:**do you know sometimes i...

2005-08-28T23:19:00.000-04:00

I like wut Doshar stated:

**do you know sometimes it is difficult to forgive your own self

Its so true..I find myself in that battle half the time...

Keshi.

Dear Paul,Forgiveness is something I'm learning. I...

2005-08-28T20:15:00.000-04:00

Dear Paul,

Forgiveness is something I'm learning. I'm not there yet, can't say I've reached the state Renee (Poems and Writings) has attained (no siree!), but each day I believe I come closer. It's a struggle, in the literal sense of the word.

I've been reading all the comments here and learning from them. I'd agree that time and acceptance are two essentials for one to be able to forgive. It helps too if you love the person you want to forgive, because you want to make things better between the two of you so you want to forgive him. But then again, love can be a double-edged sword. Betrayal, or whatever it is that needs to be forgiven, hurts all the more when it is committed by someone you truly love and believe(d) in. And that can make forgiving harder.

I find it helpful to *come back* to yourself, discover who you really are, find strength and contentment within yourself. Maybe at the root of this all, we'll find that our concept of self-worth plays a central role.

Who am I at the core? Am I a kind and loving person? Am I a good person? Will I let bitterness, anger and hatred change who I really am? Do I love and respect myself enough? Will I let the actions of others make me suffer and change who I really am? Will I give power to those who have hurt me--power to change my life, color my perceptions, make me a dour, angry and unloving individual?

I think that in everything--in love, at work, in relationships, and in life generally--we find that in the end, we are alone. We always *come back* to me, I, the person who I really am. We may be with people, but we are alone ultimately. We need to feel within ourselves that, individually, we are sufficient, we are enough and worthy, we are good and loving, we are complete. Then we can be truly happy, and we can share ourselves more fully and more meaningfully with others, and contribute what we can to society.

I'm still sorting these thoughts out so sorry if that sounded disjointed.

THE OMNIPRESENT IS TRUTH.

2005-08-28T17:52:00.000-04:00

THE OMNIPRESENT IS TRUTH.

P.S. I also went from having 0 teenagers to 2 and...

2005-08-28T14:41:00.000-04:00

P.S. I also went from having 0 teenagers to 2 and forgiveness is big in there...any advice would be appreciated :) How do I help them heal an abusive past that they don't remember or have repressed? I've heard that since they're in a supportative, stable environment now...they are more likely to start remembering it.

I preface my stuff because religious boundaries do...

2005-08-28T14:36:00.000-04:00

I preface my stuff because religious boundaries don't mean anything to me and I want to recognize that they can for others. I liked the summary and it is similar to what I'm experiencing now with the mother of my stepkids...I can see why she's in the situation she's in now and some of it is her background and other things like the society we live in which doesn't spend near as much money on basics for all. That allows me to see her and the situation in a much broader picture and "that she's doing the best with what she's got" You can't give what you don't have. So I think forgiveness starts there.

ZAHIRAH: Even though, as you say, you may find you...

2005-08-28T10:25:00.000-04:00

ZAHIRAH: Even though, as you say, you may find your comment heavy on Christian terminology, I think the gist of what you're saying fits well with other recent comments and may not depend on being a Christian at all.

When we see someone as "enemy" we're denying the reality that we're all brothers and sisters - that is, that we have a lot in common in our human natures. Someone posted to the Changes section something like: "How can we judge the actions of others when we don't even really know why we are the way we are and do the things we do?

And when we keep repeating to ourselves how angry we are and how rotten the other person is, it's undeniable that it is we who do this to ourselves, and not the other person doing this to us.

I think what you say makes a lot of psychological sense, whether someone's a Christian or not.

Not that this means it's easy to do, but maybe recognizing this is a start.

ASIANSMILES: Such a nice summary of the process, with ways to help think about things. Thank you.

Your idea that everyone is "doing their best" - the same thought has occured to me. I've wondered about it... Maybe something for next post...

Just to share my personal experience on the “proce...

2005-08-27T23:50:00.000-04:00

Just to share my personal experience on the “process of forgiving”.

Acceptance.
That was my first step in the process. Accepting that the "offense" cannot be undone anymore. Accepting the weaknesses of my "offenders", my own weaknesses, the actual and estimated damages, my options, my boundaries and most importantly, the acceptance of the things that I can change and the things that I cannot change. It sounds naive and technical but it's really very difficult, rationalizing my situation on top of the ongoing damage that my "offenders" caused was a struggle between my mind and my emotions.

Changing myself.
It took me years and years of hidden resentment before I was able to realize that I had to move on using my own means and explore the little space where I could build my life. I had to focus on things that I could achieve by “working around” the damages. No more sleepless nights thinking about the could haves, should haves, would haves. I had to do what could be done to live a better life and reduce my disabilities to the point where it could barely affect me.

Damage Control.
Somewhere in between, I also had to tell myself that whatever my offenders did to me, the burden stays with them and it stops there. I do not have to suffer any further by carrying the anger and handling disappointments.

It felt good. I had peace.
I learned to trust myself. I learned to love myself.
I learned to love people for who they are and what they are.
I learned to thank God. I learned to trust God.
I forgave the offenses.
I forgot the rage.

Life goes on.
I am now living my life in a way that I could manage and trying to live within my boundaries. I am adjusting my limits a little bit further every once in a while but I am thankful and contented with the small victories everyday. The damage is still there (it will a-l-w-a-y-s be here), but the anger is already absent.

One person and some systems continue to offend me now and I am still learning to accept them. I’m ready to forgive and forget one more time.

Side note on “Offenders”
When my dad died two years ago, I cried like a baby. There was no room for bad memories, his failures and his offenses. All I felt was the grief when I hugged his cold and lifeless body. There was no room for blame. All I felt was the loss of a father that will be buried in the ground and the loss of a chance to tell him that he did his best and “that’s all that matters to me”.

Thanks Paul, for the opportunity to share these with the others.

God bless us all.

goddess and roora: I agree that's why forgiveness ...

2005-08-27T21:49:00.000-04:00

goddess and roora: I agree that's why forgiveness is so desirable - it helps the forgiver regardless of whether it matters to the person who is forgiven. As you say, it offers the reward of not allowing the harm-doer to do further harm to your nature.

I find myself all set to be mad and hate someone f...

2005-08-27T21:32:00.000-04:00

I find myself all set to be mad and hate someone forever and I used to be able to keep that up (when I was younger). It takes an incredible amount of energy to keep up that emotion and once I focus on something else it might come back but it gets less and less. This definition comes from A Course In Miracles - forgiveness is our special function that shifts perception of another as "enemy" (special hate) or "savior-idol" (special love) to brother or friend, removing all projections of guilt from him; the expression of the miracle or vision of Christ, that sees all people united in the Sonship of God, looking beyond the seeming differences that reflect separation; thus, perceiving sin makes true forgiveness impossible; forgiveness recognizes that what we thought was done to us we truly did to ourselves, for only we can deprive ourselves of the peace of God; therefore, we forgive others for what they have NOT done to us, not for what they did.

This is heavy on Christian terminology, but you can always ask yourself - Is this really worth losing my peace of mind over?

I think forgiveness is self rewarding for the pers...

2005-08-27T17:10:00.000-04:00

I think forgiveness is self rewarding for the person himself because he will enjoy a more peaceful mind and heart , but at the end it is hard and depends on what was done and how close the person is.
but maybe time can do a lot and when you are in a postive and strong position , you can better forgive the person who hurted you.

Tyler Perry recounted a story about his parents on...

2005-08-27T14:23:00.000-04:00

Tyler Perry recounted a story about his parents on Oprah. His mother was having complications from diabetes and required eye surgery. His father would take her to the hospital and drop her off at the curb forcing her to rely on the kindness of strangers to get to her destination because her sight was impaired.

A little time passed and his father suffered temporary vision loss due to an accident. Tyler's mother took very good care of her husband during this time. When Tyler asked her why, she answered:

I can't let him change who I am.

I think that's an excellent example of forgiveness. When we hold on to pain and anger, we're only hurting ourselves. And we're allowing someone else to make us other than the kind, loving, compassionate people we believe ourselves to be.

It's easier said than done, surely. But there are some who can.

Thanks, Michael. It does seem like the people who ...

2005-08-27T12:51:00.000-04:00

Thanks, Michael. It does seem like the people who post comments here are an insightful group. Sometimes me too, but not so much on this topic!

Tish G: that's a great "strategy," to borrow Irina's word again, for many forgiveness "cases" - realizing that the offender suffers more than you. In the past, that's one that worked really well for me too.

Crystal, thanks for that link, I hadn't heard of him.

Very nice poem by Thich Nhat Hanh. He is a discip...

2005-08-27T03:07:00.000-04:00

Very nice poem by Thich Nhat Hanh. He is a disciple of non-violence in both the political and personal realms. Are you also aquainted withFr. John Dear ... he is a buddy of TNH and a Jesuit peace activist who stresses forgiveness.

great post Paul! I read alot of Hahn when I dealt...

2005-08-26T18:28:00.000-04:00

great post Paul!

I read alot of Hahn when I dealt with chronic fatigue years ago. When we are in the midst of body-suffering, it's awfully difficult to think that someone might be suffering but in a different way.

Sometimes it takes a long time to forgive someone for their cruelty...but, I sometimes try to think that they are probably suffering more than me and that, while I don't have to forgive, I can pray for their suffering to be alleviated. That's kind of how I deal with my sister, who is possibly one of the most miserable individuals I've ever met. Yet, I work to not wish her ill--rather, I consider that she suffers more than I and feel compassion for her suffering. Howeve, compassion does not require that I be a doormat and take crap from her. That's the beauty fo compassion...it doesn't really require forgiveness, and it can give you strength to deal with some seriously miserable people (even if it means just giving them a lot of space)

wow. this has been my first full out discussion se...

2005-08-26T16:14:00.000-04:00

wow. this has been my first full out discussion sense I started reading the spiritual diablog. should I expect all the discussions to be so thought provoking and full of insight? I should hope so.

Doshar, thanks for that insight. I think you reall...

2005-08-26T15:47:00.000-04:00

Doshar, thanks for that insight. I think you really nailed it: when it's someone close, it's a betrayal of the whole relationship and the love. Much easier to forgive "your neighbor."

Irina, that's for sure - our whole being is a process. I really think you'd like Hahn's books. The one I read was also very short. His language is so simple that anyone posting to this blog would find him unusually easy to read I think, even if they were much less fluent than you and Doshar.

I am in need allright, but I am most positive it i...

2005-08-26T15:37:00.000-04:00

I am in need allright, but I am most positive it is me who needs to find one. Like you said, it depends to much on ourselves. In some way there is no identical recipe for two persons in this world. Yet I agree, there are some general points that might resemble there. And that's what I read here, different recipes that actually worked for some persons. It is wonderful to read that. When I clode the blog I am still left with my problems though, and that's because no one can deal with them but me. It is a process allright. Whoever said it was perfectly right. Just like my whole being is a process... I am optimistic though. You guys showed me it is possible even if hard and even it is almost always incomplete. No one is perfect: either the forgiver or the forgiven.
The Buddhist poem astounded me by it's simplicity, truth and beauty! It so much sounds like what I have read in some Orthodox writings! Whoever that person was, he sure knew something about this messy existence of ours. Thank you, Paul for sharing it.

nice sum up of the comments paul. as i read them t...

2005-08-26T14:23:00.000-04:00

nice sum up of the comments paul. as i read them the other day i was wondering how to put them together. good job

Point here:
in relation to your personal statement about not forgiving someone who should be able to help but is not. When it is someone close, or who we love, it is more difficult t forgive, because it is not just the offense, it is a betrayal of all your relationship and love, and naturally makes you re assess your feelings about that person and see if they are worthy of your affection, besides being worthy of forgiveness. feeling betrayed hurts bad, leaves a sore spot for quite a while, I think it can be easier to forgive a complete stranger than my best friend, because pain from her is not expected.

do you know sometimes it is difficult to forgive your own self?