The Plan: The Land of Live. Post #1
As we went from discussing gratitude to how prayer may or may not work, some of you touched on the subject of a divine plan – the idea that even the details of what happens here on earth and in the universe is the acting out of a preconceived scheme of things established ahead of time by God. This view is commonly held among many groups of Christians, and I believe Muslims and Jews as well. The concept of a preconceived plan also frequently enters into other religious belief systems in one form or another. Here, from what I’ve seen, it often involves “destiny” – for example, in ideas of karma, reincarnation, and past lives.
Those who speak of the existence of a plan always rely heavily on some hidden or unseen aspect of it. That’s the part that explains how situations and events in this world that appear chance, chaotic, or dynamic when we just look at them, are really aspects of a well constructed – well, “intelligent design,” I suppose.
I assume that in the West, divine plan thinking represents a particular understanding of scripture; one that has apparently become well established in many organized religions. Personally, there’s a lot I don’t understand about the idea of a plan. Here are a few things that come to mind:
Filling in the Blanks
Free will: If we can act on free will, this sounds like a major area in which God didn’t plan out details in a preconceived manner. So is the idea that God planned for “free will” as a general sort of item or box in his overall scheme of things, but then left the specific contents of that box blank, so to speak? Because if God planned each of our freely made decisions in advance, it’s hard to understand how they’d be free. Wouldn’t we be the dreaded “zombies” that it’s usually said we would have to be without free choice? I do kind of wonder about that too. I mean, since we all have free will (or, don’t – but either way, it’s the same for all of us), then isn’t it hard to know if we’d really act like zombies without it? Then again, maybe we’re acting like zombies now, and don’t have any non-zombie humans around for comparison purposes…
Anyway: If God’s plan provides for free will in general but leaves the particulars up to us, are there additional “general” components to the plan? For example, did God plan out in advance exactly which way every leaf would land on the ground every autumn – or do the trees, the sun, and the wind work that out? Did God plan out which twigs every bird would select every spring for their nests, or has he allowed that blank to be filled in by the birds?
The more “blanks” there are, the more reality looks to me like an actual and ongoing act of creation and not something that was mapped out and preconceived ahead of time. Anyone familiar with creativity knows that the dynamic processes involved are very different from what it’s like to use the mind with a cleverness and intelligence that decides beforehand what the finished product will look like. If God’s a planner, for me that’s quite a different statement from saying that God is a genuine Creator.
Knowing A Lot
Yet certainly there are advantages to believing in a plan and believing that you know a lot about its unseen details. You can explain anything. The hidden part of the plan serves as a balance sheet, an unseen ledger so that any contradictions, inconsistencies, injustices, or other forms of untidiness that we observe in reality as we know it now, are only apparent.
And no one can ever prove you wrong. You can’t “go there” with someone who questions your idea of the plan to “look” and see if it’s really true. No one can check up on the accuracy of your assertions.
To give a simplistic and silly example, and yet one that operates on plan-principles, I could tell you I know about the Land of Live. (Live is evil spelled backwards…) Any time something evil happens in the world as we know it now, something very lively and twice as nice happens there.
Still, we should never do things here on purpose that are evil. For if we choose evil just to make that burst of positive energy happen in the Land of Live, to make it twice as nice for us when we finally get there, well, I hate to tell you, but that’s the one time it doesn’t work. A neutralizing energy field from that kind of thinking always crosses over into the Land of Live, so that nothing happens any different there than would have happened otherwise.
Things Unseen
I believe in the reality of things unseen myself. In fact, I tend to believe reality is mostly unknown by us in its full sweep, compass, and power.
When people around the world offer their different explanations concerning how much they know about things unseen, and in so much detail – well, frankly, the more they say they know, and the more details they give, the less convincing it sounds to me.
Anyone know how the idea of a divine plan got started?
Pls. note: the "Changes" link has been updated to the topic of Gratitude...
Those who speak of the existence of a plan always rely heavily on some hidden or unseen aspect of it. That’s the part that explains how situations and events in this world that appear chance, chaotic, or dynamic when we just look at them, are really aspects of a well constructed – well, “intelligent design,” I suppose.
I assume that in the West, divine plan thinking represents a particular understanding of scripture; one that has apparently become well established in many organized religions. Personally, there’s a lot I don’t understand about the idea of a plan. Here are a few things that come to mind:
Filling in the Blanks
Free will: If we can act on free will, this sounds like a major area in which God didn’t plan out details in a preconceived manner. So is the idea that God planned for “free will” as a general sort of item or box in his overall scheme of things, but then left the specific contents of that box blank, so to speak? Because if God planned each of our freely made decisions in advance, it’s hard to understand how they’d be free. Wouldn’t we be the dreaded “zombies” that it’s usually said we would have to be without free choice? I do kind of wonder about that too. I mean, since we all have free will (or, don’t – but either way, it’s the same for all of us), then isn’t it hard to know if we’d really act like zombies without it? Then again, maybe we’re acting like zombies now, and don’t have any non-zombie humans around for comparison purposes…
Anyway: If God’s plan provides for free will in general but leaves the particulars up to us, are there additional “general” components to the plan? For example, did God plan out in advance exactly which way every leaf would land on the ground every autumn – or do the trees, the sun, and the wind work that out? Did God plan out which twigs every bird would select every spring for their nests, or has he allowed that blank to be filled in by the birds?
The more “blanks” there are, the more reality looks to me like an actual and ongoing act of creation and not something that was mapped out and preconceived ahead of time. Anyone familiar with creativity knows that the dynamic processes involved are very different from what it’s like to use the mind with a cleverness and intelligence that decides beforehand what the finished product will look like. If God’s a planner, for me that’s quite a different statement from saying that God is a genuine Creator.
Knowing A Lot
Yet certainly there are advantages to believing in a plan and believing that you know a lot about its unseen details. You can explain anything. The hidden part of the plan serves as a balance sheet, an unseen ledger so that any contradictions, inconsistencies, injustices, or other forms of untidiness that we observe in reality as we know it now, are only apparent.
And no one can ever prove you wrong. You can’t “go there” with someone who questions your idea of the plan to “look” and see if it’s really true. No one can check up on the accuracy of your assertions.
To give a simplistic and silly example, and yet one that operates on plan-principles, I could tell you I know about the Land of Live. (Live is evil spelled backwards…) Any time something evil happens in the world as we know it now, something very lively and twice as nice happens there.
Still, we should never do things here on purpose that are evil. For if we choose evil just to make that burst of positive energy happen in the Land of Live, to make it twice as nice for us when we finally get there, well, I hate to tell you, but that’s the one time it doesn’t work. A neutralizing energy field from that kind of thinking always crosses over into the Land of Live, so that nothing happens any different there than would have happened otherwise.
Things Unseen
I believe in the reality of things unseen myself. In fact, I tend to believe reality is mostly unknown by us in its full sweep, compass, and power.
When people around the world offer their different explanations concerning how much they know about things unseen, and in so much detail – well, frankly, the more they say they know, and the more details they give, the less convincing it sounds to me.
Anyone know how the idea of a divine plan got started?
Pls. note: the "Changes" link has been updated to the topic of Gratitude...
posted by Paul @ 10:23 AM
33 Comments:
Ahhh...theological fatalism. It's always entertaining when a race of linear, 2-dimensional thinking beings try to understand an entity not bound by those same restraints.
I'm going down to the library to check out "Omniscience for Dummies."
I don't know if there's a divine plan or not. I like the idea that there is not a plan and that we do have free will, though I think it's possible God might have certain desires/wishes for us.
How does feww will still exist if God is all-knowing? One possibility - God maybe exists outside of time, our past and future exist in the "now" for him and so he knows what we will do, though he doesn't influence our acts.
But who knows? :-)
Ultimately it comes down to an issue of free-will. This is expressed in the classic debate between Calvinists and Arminians within Christianity.
Much of the thinking regarding determinism and God's omniscience stem from medieval philosophical speculation: "If God knows everything, he must also know the future". To counter, some argue that it is a logical argument that is ultimatley non-sensical (especially if we try to resolve it with our free will), like "God can create a rock that he can't lift".
More recently, Christian open theists and process theologians have challenged these conventional, rigid understandings of God.
I've really enjoyed this post! I'm not sure when people wanted to believe in an Ultimate Plan, but just looking at the stars probably generated the muse. I've often wondered when man became receptive to these metaphysical interests, and how they have developed to the present day. My own religion, Baha'i, presents a Great Plan, unknown to us, but mysteriously working in the universe. And then there is a smaller plan - man's little vested interests. Coordinating the two are the goal, with our lives reflecting the will of God, as our religion indicates it.
I like your phrase, "the ongoing act of creation", as it really mirrors the concepts in fractal geometry, which I think is like the DNA of God. Or, it is the sacred geometry of the universe, repeated in endless cycles...what does that tell us?
Do you truly believe that a divine lan and free will are mutually exclusive? Just a question I thought would be interesting to ask.
Paul you are a good writer. You inspire people to think, which is a difficult process.
From my perspective, and we each still seem to have our own, this is my truth of the moment: Only God exists but one of the things about God is It's desire to "Share what is mine with thee".
How to share when nothing else exists? The Creator created souls(small packages of God energy without content) in order to share what existed in the God-mind. These pieces of God (souls)were free to explore all the probabilities that existed in the God-mind.
Before time and physical realities were brought into existence, some souls, through the exploration of the knowledge of good and evil, which they had been warned not to explore, brought about the Ego. The Ego individualized into small egos recognizing themselves as different from everything else (judgment). This eventually got these souls so completely lost in their own judgmental thinking that a new reality (school) was created by souls that had not erred in their exploration and subsequent change of all that was explored (change is creation). Many of the souls here on planet Earth are these wayward souls while the rest are here to act as guides or just participate for the fun of it in the schooling going on here.
My God knows everything, but only in the realm of probabilites. My God only finds out what my next choice is when I make it from all probabilites existing. If God knew what I would choose next, the knowing would cause it to happen and not my free will choice.
Anyway, that's my idea and yours may be quite different.
Matt
Life of Bryan: Lol, that may be the funniest "dummies" title I've ever run into...
Crystal: But isn't free will consistent with God knowing? I mean, he could know about it but choose not to interfere...
I was thinking that what free will is hard to reconcile with is the idea of a detailed plan in which every single thing that happens in time and space was decided beforehand - or "out of time," if you like...
Lloyd: Hmmm... You're sounding a bit like Crystal here, maybe there's something I'm not getting... I do know I'm not familiar with the debate you refer to...
In any case, I like the process concept. To me, creation really looks and acts like an ongoing process and not something conforming to a preconceived idea.
Bonita: Sounds like your concept of a "plan" might resemble what I think of as a dynamic creative process - unless every detail is thought to be predetermined?
That's where I guess I get bogged down with plans. If life's a plan in that sense, it's a plan well planned to resemble the spontaneity and adaptiveness and opportunism of genuine creation...
Hi Barbara - No... What I'm saying is that a divine plan in the sense that every detail of what we do is predetermined is something I don't know how to reconcile with free will. If every thing I've ever chosen to do in my life was pre-caused, I don't see how I'm choosing it.
I only see free will as consistent with a divine plan if it's a "general item" kind of thing, per the post.
Matt: I actually have no ideas - I mean, along the lines of metaphysics, or a way to explain it all. I'm clueless as to the plan.
However, I do see value in many of the ideas people put forth when they try to describe a plan - like in your comment. To me, the value is in the area of real but limited insights into our own nature and its relationship to God, or, for atheists, the larger world. (I do wish atheists would not look only at the negative aspects of religion, because I think any human being can appreciate many of the insights religion offers.)
The way I think about the possible existence of a linear plan is based on certain more fundamental beliefs of mine.
One is that God is omnipotent. Not only that God can do everything but that God is the only power, so nothing can happen unless it comes from God. Starting from that basis of belief, there's not a lot of room for things to happen that are out of God's control, or that God didn't plan. No room, actually.
The other belief is that God is eternal and unchanging. So, similar (maybe) to what life_of_bryan said, a linear time-line way of thinking doesn't correspond to a Power outside of time, nor does it correspond to its plan. I see its plan as perfection, yesterday, today and forever. The time-line sequence of events that we identify as our life, then, I see as only our perception as we awake to the changeless divine reality, rather than participation in a fluctuating material and linear reality overseen by God.
plan and free will and creativity, they are different i think.
everyting in this world, what we know and don't, follows the rule of God , it is compulsary, they can't disobey even if they want to. actually they can't want to either. , they have no free will,
except for humans and Jinn. these are the only creatures to have free will. everything else follows the plan. that is what i believe.
for us humans, we are given all the tools to obey God on our own free will, we are given our senses, our heart and brain and soul. all enough to recognize God. and yet God helped us furthur by sending prophets and showing us his miracles and sending us hus books. we are allowed to choose our own pathway. and thus we are held accountable.
yet God knows beforehand who will do what, and yet knowing does not mean forcing you.
ex. you teach a class, you know that student X has not been paying attention, and has not been doing his homework. you know he will fail, but yet you will have to give him the exam, so he would not feel opressed or treated unjustly when ou give him an F. knowing and planning are two different things.
and yet God sometimes helps you by planning your tests for you, or giving you the strength to get through, or put someone in your way to show you. but it is you that has to choose to go either way. God has planned that the world be as it is today, so that the good and Bad can be tested. strong wills can be tried, weak hearts can get stronger. and God knows who will do what, but this is important for us, this life. so the ones who gain salvation diserve it, and the ones who don't, diserve it.
and if God wills it, everyone would be good, a believer. but God chooses life to be like this. a test
I believe God's only real plan is Free Will. And that's why I believe it's so important for all of us to have a spiritual life. Because when you begin to understand that your own free will is every second an act of God, I think it changes how you behave. And I think this would be God's greatest joy, for us all to be thinking, breathing, living, acting consciously while coming from divine motivations. And a divine motivation does not mean living the life of a monk either. The garbageman can come from a divine place if that is what he comes to understand is his most divine, greatest self.
I also believe that God is The Greatest Creator and that all that God does is one huge, enormous, never-ending act of creativity.
I think the closer we get to recognizing the divine in each of us and living from that place, the closer we get to God and also, the more we begin to understand what God really is. I think too that certain universal truths begin to appear when we are living this way.
It's all about harmony, with ourselves and with God. As One.
I definitely believe in a divine plan...only cos good people suffer and most of the time die too young when the most cruel people still breathe...there must be some divine explanation to that.
Reality is this moment - everything in it whether seen or not...and there r alot of things that the human being does not know of yet...
Keshi.
Paul, here's a link to wikipedia's page explaining the problem with free will and an omnisient God - link
Yes, I would definitely see a problem for the existence of free will if God had a detailed plan for everything. But not so much if he simply knew about everything.
I hate the idea that everything that happens is "God's will" because a lot of bad stuff happens, stuff that seems to have no redemptive value at all, and I don't want to think God's responcible for that.
So I like the idea that he created a universe that was, unavoidably, imperfect ... thus all the bad stuff. This doesn't answer the other big question, though - why does God allow the bad stuff to happen, why doesn't he intervene?
Interesting post, Paul!
I tend to look on the divine plan and free
will schism as being one of interpretation, more than anything else. In simpler form,
the functional view of the universe, or (of perhaps greater personal interest) the biosphere of Earth, came under the physical dominion of man - by virtue of free choice, or through intellectual evolution - in much the same way as a car dealer might hand some new owner a set of keys to some new wheels.
Presumably, the basic contract stipulates
that the vehicle will perform in a car- like fashion, but beyond that, much of the
future of the car depends on decisions made by the owner. The owner may be meticulous or sloppy in maintenance habits, paint the car Lime Green and cover it with floral appliques, or run it into a tree. I'm less certain about trade in values for the Earth. I think that, no matter whether one's leadings are purely
rational or scripturally guided, we have
a mortal responsibility not to screw up this planet. Excuses, ignorance, or personal ambitions- these all ring hollow
in the face of reality. Our free will can
and does allow us to deviate from the divine plan (if one equates our biosphere as an integral part of that plan). The plan or system runs according to its own rules, in parallel and in reaction to man-made decisions. Spiritually or in any other context, man has routinely taken the
stance that anything that we can conceive can be absorbed or accomodated by the system, or reconciled at an unspecifed future date. To couch a slightly different question in a divine scale, which of the two will outlast the other: man's free will (with its own institutional flaws), or the system itself, which we routinely treat as an all-forgiving tabla rasa?
Matthew: You write, “God is the only power, so nothing can happen unless it comes from God.”
To me just that sentence simplifies everything wonderfully –although this may depend on what one means by “God.”
Your thought that this apparent mess-of-a-world is only apparently a mess because of our limited perspective – in a way, that to me sounds something like a statement of what faith says, regardless of how you try to explain the details (which I personally shy away from trying to do because frankly I feel that neither I nor my species is up to the task).
Doshar: So in terms of the post, it sounds like for you, free will is a “general item” in the plan. God didn’t plan out what choices people make, he planned for the existence of free will. Then, given free will, people have been able to make their choices.
I think that in your view, God can do absolutely anything he wants – with no limitations whatsoever? If that’s the case, for me it begs the question of why he didn’t cut to the chase, that is, fast forward to heaven. Why would “testing” represent such a high value for God when he could have made a heaven-ready reality that was just as good right from the start, without putting everyone through so much pain?
My guess is that your view derives from the Koran; and in particular, from your formal religion’s understanding of the Koran. In other words, that it comes from accepting these sources as authoritative because you believe that they come straight from God in a unique manner. So I think that in this view, whether it makes sense to our minds would be irrelevant.
I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I’m mistaken. But your thoughts on this parallel those of many Christians.
I think that in your view, God can do absolutely anything he wants – with no limitations whatsoever? If that’s the case, for me it begs the question of why he didn’t cut to the chase, that is, fast forward to heaven. Why would “testing” represent such a high value for God...?
Good question. I can't resist sharing a story from my sufi teacher, normally on commenting I don't think its appropriate, but forgive me this one indulgence. An important concept that the sufi teach related to this is that God created creation inorder to know Himself. Which also is why we have a certain amount of free will, God is trying to show us how to choose love freely, not coerced. Yes, Allah could force us to love Him, but would that be love?
Wheat from Chaff
One day Moses was contemplating creation. He saw that Allah not only created so many things, but that He also destroyed them. He asked Allah, “O Lord, why do you create so many things and then destroy so many things?”
Allah saw that Moses knew the answer to his question, but as others needed to know, He simply gave Moses some wheat berries and told him to plant them.
After a time, the wheat was ripe for harvest. Moses cut the plants down and then crushed them to separate the wheat from the chaff. Allah came to him and asked, “O Moses, why do you destroy these plants that took so long to grow?”
Moses answered, “Lord, I must separate the usable wheat from the hay.”
Allah said, “Where did you get this wisdom?”
Moses answered, “Although I know how to separate wheat from chaff, I also realize that the wisdom is from You.”
Allah then explained, “So if your wisdom is this much, how much greater is Mine? Do you not have to destroy, in order to have flour, bulgur and hay?”
La Coloratura: Everything in your comment is similar to my own exeperience and perspecive, except your initial reference to free will. Maybe I should do a post on that. The idea that we freely choose our religious beliefs, or freely choose good vs. evil... I've never really felt that in my own life. Maybe it's an individual difference kind of thing, I don't know...
Yeah, I might do a post...
Keshi: A divine explanation - yes, there's the inclination to seek this both for the reason you state, and others.
And yet a preconceived plan isn't the only possible divine explanation...
Crystal, thanks for the link, and your remark just kicked off a brain cell... I seem to recall a line, I think from something I read in process theology, that went something like, "In order to create a Mother Theresa, God had to create a Hitler."
In other words, while God is ultimately the ruling power, while his will is ultimately done, while God is creator of the universe(s) -so that God is "all powerful" in any number of ways - God doesn't have the power to skip over the process, often painful and difficult, by which his will is accomplished.
To me, it's a more compelling solution to "the problem of evil" (how can an all powerful and all good Entity permit the existence of evil) than other solutions I've heard offered.
Yes I too at times I do not understand but the feeling that there is God who has higer designs on each thigs happen is a strong belief in me...I do not think things run just by themselves there must be an upper hand in each cell running on this univerese
G-Fish: I'm in agreement with you. It seems painfully obvious to me that our future on this planet - its duration and quality - is largely in our hands now.
If one makes an absolute distinction between God's action and human action, it seems to me that this allows for passivity and negligence in the face of obvious dangers. I think especially of uncontrolled human population growth and degradation of our habitat.
To me, there's no problem with conceiving of ourselves as an active part of creation, part of the process. If God had meant us to think and act, he'd have given us brains and hands, and whatdayaknow...
I think many religious people equate what their church says with God's will, accepting the church's statement that it speaks directly for and with perfect fidelity to God.
This turns priests into scientists, environmentalists, historians... And even though anyone with sufficient knowledge of their church's history could point to its past mistakes, this makes no difference to those who accept what might be termed the infallibility of their church. They are able to believe that all its contemporary pronouncements must be correct.
Kevin: You write, "...God created creation in order to know Himself. Which also is why we have a certain amount of free will, God is trying to show us how to choose love freely, not coerced. Yes, Allah could force us to love Him, but would that be love?"
Essentially you're saying:
1. God created creation in order to know himself.
Sounds like a form of process theology. In other words, God didn't have the power to simply know himself without first going through the labor of creation .
Is the goal of creation a form of self-knowledge - God's? Sounds plausible, but I don't know. I like the Hindu emphasis on infinite joy and being, as well as knowledge, as comprising ultimate reality.
2. It is only possible to love freely when not coerced.
This statement is certainly true by definition: the definition of "free" is, in fact, "not coerced." So it's for sure a true statement about the definitions of words.
But I'm not sure what the statement means with reference to experience. I can't imagine what the experience of a coerced love could be. I also can't imagine what a free choice love would be. That is, in actual experience, I've found my love to be a response to the loved one - or loved One. I don't spend any time thinking: Hmm... to love or not to love... When I love, I just find that I love. Could this just be me? I guess others would have to weigh in...
I agree with you that there are process-limits on God's power, and that's why God didn't "cut to the chase." Otherwise, if God's power is completely without limits, I can't understand why we're not already in heaven.
For example, if free choice is somehow necessary for real love, God, utterly free of constraints, could have produced the end result - real love - without following the free choice recipe for whipping it up.
Having to destroy chaff to obtain wheat, as in the story you outline, is also a process limitation on power.
A God of unlimited magical or miraculous power wouldn't even have to follow any rules of language or logic. In fact, such a God would have had the power to create a world that didn't follow such rules.
Iamnasra: I'm not sure if it's just the words you happened to pick, but the idea you present to me seems to have two parts. Some would feel it has to be one or the other. You write in terms of
1. A "higher design" and an "upper" hand, suggesting, to me, a God at a distance who drew up a plan ahead of time or from out of time, but then you add that
2. God's hand is "in each cell" of the universe. To me, this sounds more like on ongoing creation still in process, in ferment, responding, adapting, than a preplanned world that's already been dictated to from the outside.
I suppose a way to reconcile them would be to say God planned ahead for a dynamic looking creation, even though in reality creation itself isn't creative or in ferment, it's just following a precisely detailed advance plan designed to appear that way - ?
I think that if you have not read the book : The User Illusion, you might want to get a copy. It is full of insight into this question.
Personally, I realize that one of the not talked about issues is Time.
Time really is an illusion, existant in human minds due to seasonal effects of our local sun. Linear time really is not what it is cooked up to be by humans. Cosmic time is more simutaneous in effect, thus ushering in new problems to the question. Our concept of consciousness itself relys on this phenomenon too greatly and affects the outlook to seem like predeterminism.
A divine plan may somehow be related to a 'sliding rule' that allows for Alternative outcomes, possibly multiple outcomes, yet still be 'set' in some fashion,,, but only due to the fact that humans have not developed the ability to see past the fog of their own consciousness.
Otherwise, we would be the 'Gods' we are 'fated' to be.
Scott, thanks for bringing this angle to the subject. Though I haven't read the book, it may be that I'm familiar with the genre.
I know that there are authors with science backgrounds who take findings and theories from physics and cosmology, and use them in their metaphysical systems of what they think the overall scheme of things is really like.
To me, this makes speculation about the "plan" better informed. We tend to think our earth-bound experiences tell us all there is to know about time, space, and how matter behaves, but clearly there's more to it than this - anyone with a passing familiarity with Einstein's theory of relativity and "thought experiments" involving travel at near the speed of light has a sense of this. And I think it’s unfortunate that many religious people assume that anything not in the Bible is either irrelevant, mistaken, or already exists in the Bible in secret code – so in effect, “who cares what else science has to say, anyway…”
The technologies that spring from science have already transformed life on earth. They have potential for unprecedented good and unprecedented harm. To me, not taking science’s findings into account to at least curb our most misguided speculations is unrealistic. And I can’t reconcile religious aspirations with turning away from any form of truth.
For me personally, however, religion is primarily about practice and not speculation – I think because I don’t really find anyone’s speculations all that compelling at this point in the short history of our species; and because I find more meaning in practice than speculation. We can be aware of our relationship to God (or Reality, if you will), and learn to conduct ourselves accordingly, without having anything close to perfect knowledge of it.
If there is a divine plan it should be based on what people are able to do to make a better future. I think reason is what makes people have a free will. The people who have made a diference throughout history are those who are able to think by themselves and not just follow the rules of society.
I think people should realize that the future is in our hands and we should not just sit and think that things are just like this because they are part of some plan. Maybe we are heading through a dark age where religious fundamentalism is gaining ground.
paul, you said:
"My guess is that your view derives from the Koran; and in particular, from your formal religion’s understanding of the Koran. In other words, that it comes from accepting these sources as authoritative because you believe that they come straight from God in a unique manner. So I think that in this view, whether it makes sense to our minds would be irrelevant"
actually, i do not recall words in the Koran that give me this explaination. this is the explaination i believe, because this is what makes sense to my mind. you kind of make it sound like i beleive without thinking. i beleive, and i think, that is how it is supposed to be, and fotunately for me, the two do not contradict each other.
"for me it begs the question of why he didn’t cut to the chase, that is, fast forward to heaven. Why would “testing” represent such a high value for God when he could have made a heaven-ready reality that was just as good right from the start, without putting everyone through so much pain?"
this testing is not done for God's benifit, it is done for ours. if God cuts the chase as you put it, and just puts some people in hell for ex. would they not feel that they are unfairly treated? they think that they would have been good if given the chance? God is fair, thus gives you your chance.
also if you go to heaven , after going through this life, and suffering in it, and choosing the right ways anyway, would you not appreciate the heaven more?
would you not love God more, if you get to heaven, after making alot of mistakes here (and who doesn't) and being forgiven?
Hi Paul!
**And yet a preconceived plan isn't the only possible divine explanation
how else can it be explained?
Keshi.
I'm here...and I'm grateful, wheather it was planned or not.
Paul,
You are a good writer. As I am reading over your post and answers, I have a quesiton. Does it make a difference, ultimately, whether there is a divine plan or not? What if it is not as you describe it, but something else? Just a thought. What if free will is part of that plan?
Keshi and Barbara, you're both calling me on the same subject:
In a nutshell - it's really subject for a book chapter, and would be too long to explain it here, so I'll just briefly state it:
The observable world, both natural and human, looks to me like a living act of creation-in-process, and not something conforming, in its details, to a preconception or plan.
Richard: I emphatically agree - our own participation is part of the "plan," or what I'd want to call "creative process."
Doshar: Not that you believe without thinking, but that your thoughts presume your beliefs and largely consist of seeking to explain and justify them.
It's the same for many Christians. The authoritative source for Judeo-Christian-Muslim beliefs is the Bible/Koran, and, beyond that, the way in which the various religious institutions that are based on them, and which closely identify their authority with God's, interpret these books.
The only source for believing, for example, the fundamental teaching that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior, the divine Son of God who was resurrected, is the New Testament. We wouldn't even be talking about Jesus or aware that he existed apart from that text. The idea that Jesus is the Christ isn't something people come to on their own just from looking around the world and reflecting on life.
Kathy: You do appear grateful for being here, especially in that photo. It looks cheerful enough - but I can never quite figure it out. I think the fact that I keep the screen pretty dark to reduce migraine odds isn't helping me out on this...
Hello again Paul,
Let me just repost a comment I made in a forum. We were also discussing God's "hand" in the makings of our daily lives. re: freewill and foreknowledge..
".... the difference between foreknowing and choosing. I believe that God
is omniscient (all-knowing) and we have free will (freedom to
choose). God may know everything as we believe Him to be capable of,
but Him 'knowing' everything is entirely different from us 'choosing' anything.
In other words, for God to know what a person will choose does not
mean that the person has no freedom to make the choice. It simply means that God knows what the person will choose. Human freedom is different from God's foreknowledge."
I guess that sums up my (crooked, as they say) belief in God's plan/God's foreknowledge and freewill.
Plan.
Like you, I also do not know exactly what God's plan is or if there is really a concrete plan that can be understood by man in our lifetime – at least not in a way that we expect a “plan” should look like. There are promises in the Bible and there are passages in the books that describe how the end of our souls will begin a new life later. It takes a lot of faith to believe in everything that is written in Revelations and Daniel. And unfortunately, these books are supposedly ‘metaphoric’, which again, could be interpreted in a lot of ways.
To me, the “grand plan” may not have been as detailed and specific as we expect it to be or how others would probably “interpret”. We may have the sacred books to guide us but all we have that speaks of the “grand plan” are ‘outlines’. To add to the confusion, if we compare such books with the other books of the bible, the issue on the “merciful God” as opposed to the “just God” always comes out. The bible does say that even Daniel was not given the whole divine truth; mystics believe that there is indeed a "grand plan" and us being a part of God will need to be "enlightened" to experience the different godly realms. Buddhists talk about the highest state of 'nothingness'...
So in our limited human capacity to grasp the whole scenario, how can we then see the "plan"? Unless we be placed in a godly level.
I think that if indeed, there is really a “grand plan”, then those who successfully lived by the plan’s ‘guidelines/teachings’ will deserve the “grand rewards” after.
The question therefore is "whose" belief teaches the "real grand plan"?
(Let me quote again)“God's wisdom is not ours”, so I think it's kind of hazy to see where the limits begin until mankind finally reaches our human capacity of to learn and ceases to explore things in that direction. (Which is highly improbable).
Thanks again.
Asiansmiles: Yeah - I mentioned the same thing in reponse to another comment here or on some other recent post. I don't see what conflict there is between the idea of free will and God knowing what choices we make...
As to the rest, I agree on that too - our ideas about all-reality and how everything fits together must be "hazy" at best! That's why I become increasingly skeptical the more details anyone seems to think they know about just how God and the universe all works.
Thank you for another thoughtful commment.
Is it possible to have free will, or to believe in it, if we do not get to decide where and when we will be born, what sex and IQ will have, what illnesses we may get and so on? Perhaps we do get to decide these things in the time before birth, but if we don't, our free will is limited. We can decide how to respond to certain things, but we do not have unlimited free will. Perhaps free will is something we can grow and grow into. Perhaps free will is like a muscle that gets stronger with use until we become bodhisattva.
I read somewhere once a saying that went something like this: "God doesn't plan; God creates. Be like God, don't have a plan." Wow! That really blew my mind. I'd always been taught God was first and foremost a planner. Perhaps God doesn't have a plan but solutions, creative solutions. When I think about it, in this dog eat dog world, love is a pretty radical and creative solution.
Hi Emilyjane, wish you had a blog, I'd visit it for sure.
"God doesn't plan; God creates. Be like God, don't have a plan." Wow... My sentiments exactly.
I have major problems with the whole free will thing, especially as it's often applied to religion - we "choose" whether to accept Jesus as our Savior, we "choose" whether to accept Mohammed as Seal of the Prophets and the Koran as dictated by Allah... And anytime we do good or evil, we freely choose that too...
Like you say, surely any degree of freedom in choice that we have has limitations. Our choices don't occur in a vacuum. There are plenty of environmental influences that are obvious...
I don't want to dwell too much into the details, but I believe that everything that comes our way is half-chance. Perhaps, this is part of the workings of a divine plan. I think free will is the other half of the equation.
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