Forgiveness: Final Remarks. Post #7
Before moving on to the subject of gratitude, here’s a final post on forgiveness. It’s based on two comments that were made to the “forgiveness” section of the “Changes” link at the right. Looking at the two comments together, they make a distinction worth considering.
Clean Breaks vs. Entanglements
First, here’s an excerpt from Sirbarrett’s comment. His blog is called, Writings of Faith, http://sirbarrett.blogspot.com/.
“They told me they had forgiven me, but our relationship is ruined. Can forgiveness sometimes be incomplete? I have lost them. I wonder if the problem isn't so much the need for forgiveness, as remembering what it is that we need forgiveness for and changing that.”
Anonymous says, in part (btw, A has no blog, but way to go, A – good to have non-bloggers commenting to blogs too!): “…I live my life and let other people live theirs, and as long as they're not messing with me, I don't care what they do. If they mess with me, I'll let them know right up front and tell them to stop. If they don't stop, I walk and make sure they can't get near me again. It's protecting yourself. You have to protect yourself.”
Anonymous’ “live and let live” outlook, in the sense of completely breaking off contact with those who harm us, amounts to, “forget and move on" rather than “forgive.” I think this works well under two conditions:
1. If the harm done was not great and lasting, making it relatively easy to move on, since the anger isn't likely to linger over time to trouble us.
2. If we are willing and able to walk away from the person who wronged us.
Sirbarrett, however, points to another kind of situation, in which, after the wrongdoing occurs, we are either unwilling or unable to completely exclude the other person from our lives. This is often the case with family members. If a substantial wrong is committed, the relationship can be greatly altered for the worse – “ruined,” as Sirbarrett mentions.
Forgiveness and Salvaging Relationships
To me, Sirbarrett’s comment points to the fact that in this kind of situation, forgiveness may at best be part of the resolution, if resolution can occur at all. It is the deteriorated pattern of feeling, communication, and behavior that needs to change. Forgiveness could conceivably be an early step in making such changes; yet it may be that the act requiring forgiveness itself arose from out of an interpersonal pattern that was faulty in certain respects to begin with…
Clean Breaks vs. Entanglements
First, here’s an excerpt from Sirbarrett’s comment. His blog is called, Writings of Faith, http://sirbarrett.blogspot.com/.
“They told me they had forgiven me, but our relationship is ruined. Can forgiveness sometimes be incomplete? I have lost them. I wonder if the problem isn't so much the need for forgiveness, as remembering what it is that we need forgiveness for and changing that.”
Anonymous says, in part (btw, A has no blog, but way to go, A – good to have non-bloggers commenting to blogs too!): “…I live my life and let other people live theirs, and as long as they're not messing with me, I don't care what they do. If they mess with me, I'll let them know right up front and tell them to stop. If they don't stop, I walk and make sure they can't get near me again. It's protecting yourself. You have to protect yourself.”
Anonymous’ “live and let live” outlook, in the sense of completely breaking off contact with those who harm us, amounts to, “forget and move on" rather than “forgive.” I think this works well under two conditions:
1. If the harm done was not great and lasting, making it relatively easy to move on, since the anger isn't likely to linger over time to trouble us.
2. If we are willing and able to walk away from the person who wronged us.
Sirbarrett, however, points to another kind of situation, in which, after the wrongdoing occurs, we are either unwilling or unable to completely exclude the other person from our lives. This is often the case with family members. If a substantial wrong is committed, the relationship can be greatly altered for the worse – “ruined,” as Sirbarrett mentions.
Forgiveness and Salvaging Relationships
To me, Sirbarrett’s comment points to the fact that in this kind of situation, forgiveness may at best be part of the resolution, if resolution can occur at all. It is the deteriorated pattern of feeling, communication, and behavior that needs to change. Forgiveness could conceivably be an early step in making such changes; yet it may be that the act requiring forgiveness itself arose from out of an interpersonal pattern that was faulty in certain respects to begin with…
posted by Paul @ 3:07 PM
35 Comments:
My first impression is that communication is the main step to emphasize here.
I guess theory is so much easier than practice. As they say, easier said than done. Sometimes I found myself wishing I could forgive, even deciding to forgive but failing at actually doing it... Or sometimes, when I thought forgiveness was complete, when I would meet the person again, I would feel anger... I wonder how you can stop or control that. I guess the work on yourself has to be done at a deeper level. Ego might be a big obstacle in the way of forgiveness... So much to figure out still.
wow.
Glad to see your back :)
Freethinker, communication is the key to all things, but not all people are equipped with such tools in life. That could be why 2 out of three marriages fail, yes?
On the other hand Irina, to be angry every time you see the person just means (at least to me) that you still have unresolved feelings for or with that person. Forgiving is one thing, forgetting is entirely something else. I have found with one comes the other, or at least if not forgotten laid to rest. I am not sure that one can completely; if at all forgive someone when they have not resolved those broken feelings. Perhaps it is something like trust, "earned not given". One more thing it may be that ego that stops people, but I would call it pride....smiles
Think about this saying, "There is a thin line between love and hate", this is truer than even I want to admit but then admitting something is a beginning.
Soft love,
T
Freethinker, I do know what you mean. That's what I find most problematic in one situation in my own life. Two people can stop hearing each other.
So T, I think you're right too - communication problems are tough ones to solve...
Irina, right, that's what I mean... To me the continuing anger in these situations might reflect ongoing issues, which suggests that one simple act of forgiveness can't resolve a lot of these situations.
Thanks Kathy, and thanks for checking in Jadedtlc.
Glad to see you back, Paul.
I agree with Irina ... an example is my stepfather and me. He was a pretty bad father when I was a kid. Then he left the family for many years. Lately he has returned and wants to know us again. He's nice now and I want to forgive him, think I have, but whenever I see him, there's still some resistance, some deeply buried grudge that I can't seem to let go of.
welcome back Paul, I hope your absence was profitable. Tangible or not...
"yet it may be that the act requiring forgiveness itself arose from out of an interpersonal pattern that was faulty in certain respects to begin with…"
*click* !
thanks for turning that light on!
I don't think forgetting is entirely something else, T. It's true you can't forget, I agree, but this fact cannot be totally disassociated from the forgiveness process. It's intermingled. It questions your forgiveness, or sometimes it just helps...
And they say that if you don't look at the person, but at the common One that lives within us... could be easier to forgive them. I wouldn't know, haven't experienced that yet. But I sure would like to.
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CRYSTAL: It sounds like things are on the right track w/ your stepfather. The person changing seems to make that almost inevitable.
This is a long shot and probably irrelevant, but just in case:
You mention still not having 100% gotten over the anger. I know that for myself, in a situation with my father that sounds like it must have been somewhat similar to yours, I ended up finding out that it was important for me to let him know how damn hard he'd made it for me to love him - what a hell of a process it had been for me. That was both a part of saying how much I loved him, and being honest, and not minimizing the past even while getting beyond it.
Hi KEVIN, glad that made some sense and thanks for stopping by.
IRINA: I do see what you mean about forgiveness and forgetting having a relationship. If you forgive, you're not going to keep dwelling on the past, replaying it in your mind. Seeing the One in everyone... or, as someone else has mentioned, recognizing we're all human and imperfect and make mistakes... Sounds like you'd prefer some "free gracer" solution too...
Forgiveness is part of a healing process and to me it is always in progress. As I continue to find myself in circumstances that require forgiveness in one form or another, I learn something new about the process of forgiveness.
Fogiveness is one of the four major karmic lessons that lead to passion. The first lesson is betrayal, then forgiveness, then love, then passion. I wonder if its possible to jump from one karmic lesson to another and not undertake the lesson in this actual sequence. I seem to have reached a stalemate with forgiveness.
How does one forgive if the person you need to forgive continually spews painful words at you without even trying?
Well I'll let you be the judge of my spin on it: http://winniedstitchwitch.blogspot.com/2005/09/journal-pages-healing-process-in.html
It's my visual take on the matter.
I am glad to see you've returned, and with an excellent post too. I don't have anything to contribute yet, but I have something to think about. Maybe I'll be back w/ some thoughts later on.
Wrr: I'm not familiar with those stages, but know exactly what you mean about the problem of forgiving, forgettng, moving beyond, getting past the matter in some way, when the person isn't able to change his or her harmful attitude.
Under those conditions, the best I've been able to come up with is to have the least possible contact. No contact at all, I think, at least for a while, would be best, but sometimes we're in situations where we are unable or unwilling to do that.
Hiya Justin, thanks for dropping by.
WB Paul!
People dont easily forget...as long as ur memory is good, it's hard to forgive 100%...it's really hard. Thats all I can say.
Keshi.
Thanks, Paul, for taking the time to visit my blog and posting. Hope you'll come back every now and then.
Was it patience or presence? Its neither. The outer core of the heart in that page is "experience."
Experience... because that's what prevents me from moving on and forgiving, bad experience. So yes, I've put some distance between me and my oppressor but that's hard to keep up when it concerns family members.
When I'm able to get past the trauma of the verbal abuse then I'll be able to revisit and perhaps really achieve forgiveness. Sigh.
Yes forgiveness is part of healing process but it is so hard to forgive when you heart is so angry and broken...
Thank you Paul for your insight
This comment was very interesting.
“They told me they had forgiven me, but our relationship is ruined. Can forgiveness sometimes be incomplete? I have lost them. I wonder if the problem isn't so much the need for forgiveness, as remembering what it is that we need forgiveness for and changing that.”
I too think that forgiveness can sometimes be incomplete.
Keshi, Wrr, Iamnasra, and August: It sure sounds like we're all in the same boat on this one, as well as pretty much everyone else who's posted.
Wish somebody could have tried to "corner" Jesus on this one way back when... Wish someone had asked,
"With all due respect and even, for many of us, worship, when you said to forgive 'seventy times seven,' were you just referring to neighbors, casual acquaintances, rude strangers? Because Lord, most of us are probably up to that anyway...
"Or were you talking about family members? Were you ever alienated from a close family member? Please tell us how you handled it..."
glad you are back paul.
forgiving and forgetting absolutely? not always easy, but in some instances definitely done. some wounds just leave too much of a scar to remind you. but i think if the wound completely heals, it would be just a matter of choice, or matter of trusting those people again.
"forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it." mark twain
Alienated by a family member...Hmm, i'm not sure that's what I can call it.
I moved out of the house and on my own. I rearly visit them and when I do I find that it's only out of obligation. I feel my muscles tighten whenever I need to go back there because they haven't changed and I would rather not submit myself to their negativity so I avoid rather than do anything else. I've decided my healing and recovery was more important to me and that when I'm stronger and perhaps wiser about the ways of forgiveness then perhaps I will no longer need to forgive them and just be able to pick up from where I left off and finally move on.
It's really difficult to process so many debris that I've neglected to acknowledge the presence of so there so much spiritual spring cleaning that I need to do before I can actually even consider asking myself if I'm able to forgive.
Well, who knows, perhaps I'll just find myself able to without realizing it. It'll be just one of those epiphanies that one stumbles upon like a happy accident that has been actually schedule to take place.
If anyone figures this one out. Do give me a holler. LOL!
Hi Doshar. You're reminding me of how complicated this topic is... When violations of trust have been repeated, ongoing, and there is every indication that nothing has changed with the individual, choosing to trust is impossible. It's like trying to trust a hot stove not to burn your hand.
Maybe it's possible to forgive without trusting again??
Twh: It would be great if forgiveness were as automatic (and aromatic) as a sweet fragrance that comes from crushing a flower.
Wrongs and injustice are so common that the world would smell wonderful pretty much everywhere...
Wrr: Okay if I muddy the waters further, as an alternative to figuring it out...?
I'm thinking that a lot of the stuff relating to forgiveness may be more psychological and interpersonal than spiritual. Of course it can get in the way of spiritual development. But especially where it comes to family, this stuff gets highly complicated and individualized pretty fast...
Hi Paul. Appreciated this post and the feel of your whole blog. I'm so glad to meet you!
Kristin - I like yours as well and will be checking in. Thanks for posting.
Forgiveness and the ability are two distinct
things, IMO. Forgiveness is the quality of releasing another from the guilt of some commission, somewhat like accepting the "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. Once used, the person once again places him|herself back in nearly the same ethical or moral surroundings from which the infraction arose (but not quite-because, absent the
grace of forgetfulness) both the victim and the perpetrator are compelled to remember that whatever it was, did and could happen.
Forgetfulness is an armistice with oneself, a special gift that allows you
to stop carrying around unseen burdens
which defy conventional means of disposal.
It's so magical that I wonder if it truly exists, in pure form. One can only hope.
The first attenuates pain, while the other
attenuates existence.
hi paul! sorry i have been away for so long...
forgiveness, eh?! well, i feel that before we can offer our forgiveness to others, we must first forgive ourselves. it takes more then one person to cause a breech of trust. i think its important to look at our own faults first, forgive ourselves, then work outward to others.
sadly, sometimes two or more people are unable to mend that which is broken. when that is the case, i feel it is extremely important to remember the journey which lead us to our error or laps in judgement. sometimes, finding forgiveness from someone we hope to receive it from remains unattainable. its sad, but true. forgive yourself and be free...
G-Fish: Hadn't thought of that, if it's what you're suggesting: that if the forgiven person takes the forgiveness seriously enough, it might influence his/her behavior to the point where further offenses are less likely.
In the situation I have in mind personally, the dynamics in the relationship are so problematic that it's hard to imagine that even a seriously offered/accepted act of forgiveness could suffice to straighten out the details, which seems to be where the devil is, so to speak...
Kerry: Good to hear from you. I think I'd need to know more about what you mean by,
"it takes more then one person to cause a breech of trust."
You must have a particular kind of situation in mind here. If you stop and think about it, there are lots of examples of one way breaches of trust, both individual and historical...
Thanks for pointing out another dimension of this complex topic by pointing out that self-forgiveness can be involved - but I would want to add, not necessarily. Which is why this topic gets so darned complicated...
it's okay, paul...i forgive you.
Twh, aka "that woman here:" Thanks, and I guess I should have predicted THAT one. But I don't smell any violet scent, so I guess I wasn't really such a "heel" and my remark wasn't too "crushing" after all - so that only a small dose or undetectable waft of forgiveness was required, ha ha...
I try to remember that my first priority is to deal with my own anger and indignity before I can offer consolation or understand why I've received no forgiveness, which usually means looking at things from the other person's perspective, and not taking what they might know for granted.
We have to make sure we aren't hard on others because of what we feel towards those who we have damaged relationships with. The first relationship to repair is the one with yourself, otherwise, you will not be able to love others. As mother Theresa said: "You cannot give what you have not got"
Sir Barrett: Yeah - once the relationship is damaged, it can turn ino a self-perpetuating thing. Each person may be harder on the other one than ever before. And also as you say, each often presumes to know just where the other's coming from, especially in a situation where the two people have known each other long and well...
We tend to expect a feeling of peace when we forgive someone, however, I believe forgiveness is a choice; a decision, not necessarily an emotion. I had harbored resentment towards my mother for decades. A visit with her would reduce me to depression for a week or more, and just when I started feeling myself again, it was time for my next visit. This process was like constantly reopening an old wound just as it started healing. Finally, I asked God what was wrong with me. He showed me that the first step was deciding to forgive. The second step was asking him to follow up with the feeling. Every time I felt that old anger, I reminded God that I had made the decision to forgive her and I was believing him to follow up with the feeling. My mother has not changed; I changed, and that change produced peace. I now have peace about her and peace about myself.
Anonymous: Thanks for something no one else has thought of - the idea of forgiveness as practice.
I use the word "practice" in a similar sense to how it's used in Buddhism. Buddhism is a highly practical religion, and contains many concrete ideas for overcoming attitudes harmful to self and others. They require just the kind of introspection followed by repeated implementation that you're describing, except that your comment is the first time I hear something like this applied to forgiveness.
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