Forgiveness: They Know Not What They Do. Post #4
Kathy, posting to the Changes link, along with AsianSmiles in the comments section to the last post, brought up a couple of interesting points that happen to be closely related. I wondered if they might be useful in the struggle to become “free-gracers” – that is, people who are able to forgive any and all offenses, rather than judging individuals who have offended us on a case by case basis.
Kathy: Forgiveness" hmmm? Well, Jesus had the attitude that humans do not know what they do. We don't even know why we do the things we do...how can we understand why other people do the things they do (hurting people and themselves)?
AsianSmiles: When my dad died two years ago, I cried like a baby. There was no room for bad memories, his failures and his offenses. All I felt was the grief when I hugged his cold and lifeless body. There was no room for blame. All I felt was the loss of a father that will be buried in the ground and the loss of a chance to tell him that he did his best and “that’s all that matters to me.”
A Question: When people behave badly to us, do they choose to harm us with full appreciation and consciousness of what they are doing – its implications for themselves as well as us? Are people “basically sinful” in the sense that they choose wrongdoing with full and knowing consciousness?
Or might it be better to think of offenses given to us personally, and to conceive of sin generally, as a matter of people being flawed, ignorant, often deeply and seriously… And yet possibly this is the best they can do, at least at that point in their lives, and in relation to us.
So “sin,” rather than being construed as “conscious choice,” becomes, “not knowing what we do” – ignorance, or being unenlightened.
What do you think?
Kathy: Forgiveness" hmmm? Well, Jesus had the attitude that humans do not know what they do. We don't even know why we do the things we do...how can we understand why other people do the things they do (hurting people and themselves)?
AsianSmiles: When my dad died two years ago, I cried like a baby. There was no room for bad memories, his failures and his offenses. All I felt was the grief when I hugged his cold and lifeless body. There was no room for blame. All I felt was the loss of a father that will be buried in the ground and the loss of a chance to tell him that he did his best and “that’s all that matters to me.”
A Question: When people behave badly to us, do they choose to harm us with full appreciation and consciousness of what they are doing – its implications for themselves as well as us? Are people “basically sinful” in the sense that they choose wrongdoing with full and knowing consciousness?
Or might it be better to think of offenses given to us personally, and to conceive of sin generally, as a matter of people being flawed, ignorant, often deeply and seriously… And yet possibly this is the best they can do, at least at that point in their lives, and in relation to us.
So “sin,” rather than being construed as “conscious choice,” becomes, “not knowing what we do” – ignorance, or being unenlightened.
What do you think?
posted by Paul @ 1:06 PM
33 Comments:
everyone doing anything wrong would have to lie to themselves about it a litte bit to be able to do it. they would find an excuse somehow, each story in the world can have more than one side.
ex. rapists sometimes claim the victim was wearing provacative clothes, doing suggestive things etc.
i think (with rare exceptions) that when we do something wrong, at some level, we know what we are doing. some of us choose to ignore it somehow, by simply choosing not to think of all consequences of your actions, and other people in general. that is a choice.
but the more you know, the more you are accountable. and when told that this or that was wrong/bad/hurtful, the reaction can tell you plenty.
if i tell someone that he has hurt my feelings, and he doesn't care, then he did it because he doesn't care. another person would be surprised and say: oops i am sorry, didn't realize i hurt your feeling.
we all have our own psychological masks to be able to live with ourselves, but once in a while, the mask is too thin, and you can't hide from what you had done.
btw, the right and wrong are engraved in our hearts, and we are in general able to recognize when something is not quite right. it bugs you and nags at your mind, you might be too embarassed to admit it in public.
sometimes it bothers me more when the wrong doer says he doesn't know. i feel he is in denial, just to feel good about himslef. i would rathar he says: i was wrong, i regret that, i am sorry.
excuses like i didn't notice i was hurting you would just drive me crazy. you are supposed to bear in mind and pay attention to doing what is right all the time, esp. when dealing with other people
I think sin is missing God's goal for our life's.
God has made us to worship Him. Sin makes us an unclean vessel from which no true worship can come. We need the blood of Jesus to cleans us from sin and restore our relation with God. Then we can pour out ourself in worship.
When we forgive our transgressors we allow God to restore us.
The forgiveness Jesus gave us is so much greater then what we forgive others. It is my heart that need to forgive, I can never blame my transgressor for my choises after wrong doings from others.
QUZ BOSS: So if I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like you believe that when people act to harm others - and damage their own spirits - they do this on purpose. It's a fully conscious choice. So, "forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do," - this would not be a reason to forgive.
DOSHAR: To me, your comment suggests more that people "know not what they do." As you say, they give themselves "excuses" - people can be very good at fooling themselves.
I also do know exactly what you mean: that, at least in my own experience, deep down, at some level, there has always been a feeling of what's right or wrong.
However: Does that feeling necessarily mean there is a true choice? We can be more or less aware of that feeling - who knows why? I think, for example, of some stupid things I did when I was a kid. At the time I did them, I had a kind of dark or black feeling trying to tell me that what I was doing was wrong. But I didn't have enough experience of myself or life to know to listen to this feeling.
So did I truly choose the wrong? Or did I act wrongly because I was ignorant?
RENEE(Poems and Writings): Interesting comment, but what about my question? Were you you napping in class today, lol?
When people do wrong, do they fully appreciate and understand that it's wrong, and why it's wrong, and choose it anyway? Or are they ignorant, "not knowing what they do?"
Sorry to be so strict with you today Renee, but you know, you've gotten to be a regular around here, so I can't let you off the hook so easy...
you asked - When people do wrong, do they fully appreciate and understand that it's wrong, and why it's wrong, and choose it anyway? Or are they ignorant, "not knowing what they do?"
the answer is yes :-).
I think that some people don't realize the consequences of their acts, but that some do and go ahead anyway. Maybe forgiveness will have to depend on the mindset of the forgiver and not on that of the ones needing forgiveness ... back to free gracing, I guess?
I dont know wut a sin is anymore...cos ppl r forced to do certain things in certain circumstances. And no one can judge another completely unless they r in his shoes too.
As a Buddhist we r capable of 5 great sins and the 5 moral precepts are...
1. Avoid killing, or harming any living thing.
2. Avoid stealing -- taking what is not yours to take.
3. Avoid sexual irresponsibility, which for monks and nuns means celibacy.
4. Avoid lying, or any hurtful speech.
5. Avoid alcohol and drugs which diminish clarity of consciousness.
So I guess as far as I can avoid the above, I'd feel happy abt myself...but every religion is different and they may not see this the same way I see.
Paul I will be posting something along these lines soon...I'd appreciate ur input in it cos ur very knowledgable in this area. Thanks :)
Keshi.
Crystal - What do you think of this possibility: a person can have rational clarity about the consequences of his or her actions, yet still be profoundly ignorant - of inner meanings, of spiritual consequences.
Keshi - Rationally I'm in the same boat as you here: "sin" in its traditional concept of choosing evil over good with full conscious knowledge strikes a discord with me. Rationally, I'm therefore much inclined to be a "free gracer." In the past, I was pretty much there emotionally too.
Frankly I've gone through hell for the last 12 years of my life, a good portion of it expedited by the actions of others. And it isn't going to end. (You could click on the hmoappeals link for a few of the grim details under "My Story.")
So I feel more "mixed up" than "knowledgable" in this area, but yes, I'll gladly keep an eye on your blog.
Btw, your comments on Buddhism bring up another topic, maybe for someday: in my view, the religions of the world become highly similar when you look at morality and at what I would see as central spiritual experiences, despite the endless dissimilarities in belief.
I assume that most people behave out of self-interest, and sometimes that is laced with ignorance that leads to wrong doing. It is important to keep in mind that everything starts with thoughts - right thinking, which leads to careful action...hopefully.
I can't think of a situation that would call for a complete abrogation of rightness in favor of complete wrongfulness, at least, not among rational beings. By the same token, any decision involving moral considerations is bound to have some degree of "wrongness" versus "rightness", if not in one persons eyes, then in the others. Many will pronounce judgement about some decision without knowing or considering themselves why the situation went the way that it did, which doesn't help matters. And for people who even consider the "right vs. wrong" angles of an action, I don't believe that many
would deliberately saddle themselves with
any more ethical burdens or regrets than
they absolutely had to, which tends to rule out deliberate evil in most cases. I
beleive that people make wrong decisions
more often because of unexamined options
or ignorance, than out of pure evil.
either side could be argued ad nauseam without much insight into the main point. can we really know the full consequences of any of our actions, sins or not? who can predict the future? or it could be argued that each of us knows exactly what we are doing, similarly to doshar's comments. but as it comes to the issue of forgiveness, like you said Paul, leaning toward the "not know what you do" side definitely makes it easier to be a "free-gracer."
I'm finding more and more in life that some perceived dichotomies are in actuality a continuum that we have trouble conceptualizing because of our finite minds. here is one example: on one end of the spectrum, some people hold the view of God as the righteous, holy, sovereign Lord is to be revered and respected. on the other end, you have the view that God is your friend, your loving caring Father, that you can "hang out" with. then in the middle and at various points along the way are those that say God is the perfect balance of the two. I'm saying God is the entire spectrum all at once.
going back to the point- this issue about sin, whether or not it is the "conscious choice" or "not knowing what we do," could be one of those cases. that sin isn't one or the other or even a mix of the two, but entirely both at the same time. it could explain a few things (without entering a discussion over free will). I'll leave that open to discussion.
Paul, you asked ... can a person have rational clarity about the consequences of his or her actions, yet still be profoundly ignorant - of inner meanings, of spiritual consequences.
Yes, I think I see what you mean. Maybe this is what Jesus meant when he said "they know not what they do" ... they knew they were executing someone, maybe even felt it was murder. But they probably discounted any spiritual consequences of that act.
Paul:
I think some act om purpose, some are ignorant.
I think I tend the most to: They do not know what they are doing.
Hi Paul
I enjoy reading your blogs. Your questions are really good. In answering your question, I like to think that most of the people who do bad and hurtful things to other beings are ignorant, not knowing what they do. These people don't love themselves...so how can they love others? I also believe in Mental illness in humans...mental illness comes in lots of forms.
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[Jesus replied,] "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:30-31
If we don't love ourselves...then how can we love others? or God for that matter?
My answer to your question is it depends on the person doing the offense. I don't think there's a one-size fits all. We all have different motivations. Some people intend malice while others just make mistakes or don't know how they are affecting others.
Bonita: You raise important questions I think. What is "self interest?" Is it identical with egoic interests?
"It all starts with thinking..." To me, some things start with thinking; certain chains of thinking/feeling/acting... But I might be inclined to view feeling and emotion as generally more basic.
G-Fish: That's really where I lean on that one too. Imagining someone choosing evil as evil with the full knowledge of why it's evil - it's like imagining Buddha after his enlightenment going, "Oh, the heck with this Buddha stuff. I'd really just like to find some easy scam for cheating people out of their money to get rich quick."
Of course this an extreme hypothetical, but in real life, I tend to think that to the degree people do wrong, they may fail to appreciate the real significance of their actions to themselves and others - otherwise, they wouldn't do them. What would be the point?
Michael: Right - we can't know the full consequences of our actions. In general though, I think there's a strong correlation between good intentions, or being well-motivated, and positive outcomes. But this fact you point to that the consequences of our actions and efforts are neither completely foreseeable nor under our complete control, is what makes us look at moral behavior in terms less of outcome than of motivation and intention. ("Did he mean to do it?", "Did she give it her best effort?" etc.)
I take your point about how conscious choice and ignorance may not be exclusive - that wrongdoing could in some sense be an outcome of both. Like you said, that could be a long discussion! (Same for your remarks concerning God...) Thanks for such a thoughtful comment.
Crystal, thanks! I kind of wondered when I wrote that if I could get the idea across...
Renee (P&W): Thanks for checking in and letting me "put you on the spot" about that one!
Kathy, I think you're right - a lot of people get hurt in the self-love area early in their lives. And also, as you suggest, that mental illness may come in more varieties than we generally acknowledge.
Goddess - A question: Do those who intend great malice comprehend the implications of their malice in the same way that you or I would comprehend them?
I appreciate all your smart comments. It's like my blog has some kind of "thoughtfulness filter," - except the spam once in a while...
personally Paul, I think we get wrapped up in our own experience of the hurt and then ego takes over - it's tough to forgive when our ego i reminding us of the hurt involved - Time really helps to dull the ego's spin on hurt - this is what I have found.
J
what the voice just said rings truth for me too. I think its natural for most humans to feed the i -the ego. It's pretty much in our nature right? going against whats natural is very hard.
this reminds me of a recent incident i heard about. a 15-year-old kid tried to hold up an internet cafe not far from where i live. (i was concerned because I myself own an internet cafe and there have been thefts in our own shop.)
anyway, the attempt was foiled when the owner, who happened to be a policeman, came to the shop unexpectedly and caught the teenager, and then proceeded to beat him up until he was black and blue. (#*@!!) this may be shocking but it's third world reality. then it was later revealed that the teenager's mom was in the hospital and they had no money, so the kid thought of robbing a shop.
speaking generally, there's "sin" involved in robbing (and in every wrongdoing) but there too is motivation for the action. the motivation may be "noble," or it maybe petty and egoic. in either case, there are bound to be repercussions for the "sinner," for we always reap what we sow. at times, the "sinner" may be ignorant that he did something wrong, but this doesn't excuse him. he will get his karma, which is inescapable. and i believe he will keep on "sinning," or more accurately, committing acts borne out of ignorance...until he learns his lesson and chooses a more enlightened course of action. ignorance here is a broad term that not only means "not knowing," but also transgressing against the highest Laws of all, which are universal, and which include love, compassion, kindness, respect for others and for life.
in the above context, "sinning" and reaping the equivalent karma (which is often misconstrued as punishment)... is not a *bad* thing per se, but a learning process for all of us. something that can make us all better, more humane, and more enlightened persons.
J: Yes, there's the hurt, and then the ego takes over and keeps reminding us of it - like Kathy, I think that's a good description of the essential process.
What about when the hurt keeps coming? I think that's the toughest. "This too shall pass," "Time heals all things" - but when the actual harm continues to accrue... I've wondered sometimes how torture victims who are permanently and severely disabled, and perhaps left with lifelong physical pain, deal with forgiving.
This would be still more extreme, at least psychologically, than what I'm dealing with, but it's the closest analogy I can think of to my very unusual circumstances. And although I don't consciously dwell on those who caused the harm, they are like a background presence in my day to day life that most days does come into the foreground briefly at least once or twice.
MJ: You remind me that to me, there's no simple "list of sins." Lists and commandments are great and important general guidelines, but I always think of a Cambodian boy I knew when I taught ESL. He described how he used to steal rice, at the risk of his life, to help his family survive the Khmer Rouge slave labor camp. Here is stealing that is sin in no sense whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned.
I agree: ignorance... learning from experience, having it alleviated a bit... always more ignorance and more learning... that would be the essential process of getting further away from spiritual hurt.
We work like a horse.
We eat like a pig.
We like to play chicken.
You can get someone's goat.
We can be as slippery as a snake.
We get dog tired.
We can be as quiet as a mouse.
We can be as quick as a cat.
Some of us are as strong as an ox.
People try to buffalo others.
Some are as ugly as a toad.
We can be as gentle as a lamb.
Sometimes we are as happy as a lark.
Some of us drink like a fish.
We can be as proud as a peacock.
A few of us are as hairy as a gorilla.
You can get a frog in your throat.
We can be a lone wolf.
But I'm having a whale of a time!
You have a riveting web log
and undoubtedly must have
atypical & quiescent potential
for your intended readership.
May I suggest that you do
everything in your power to
honor your encyclopedic/omniscient
Designer/Architect as well
as your revering audience.
As soon as we acknowledge
this Supreme Designer/Architect,
Who has erected the beauteous
fabric of the universe, our minds
must necessarily be ravished with
wonder at this infinate goodness,
wisdom and power.
Please remember to never
restrict anyone's opportunities
for ascertaining uninterrupted
existence for their quintessence.
There is a time for everything,
a season for every activity
under heaven. A time to be
born and a time to die. A
time to plant and a time to
harvest. A time to kill and
a time to heal. A time to
tear down and a time to
rebuild. A time to cry and
a time to laugh. A time to
grieve and a time to dance.
A time to scatter stones
and a time to gather stones.
A time to embrace and a
time to turn away. A time to
search and a time to lose.
A time to keep and a time to
throw away. A time to tear
and a time to mend. A time
to be quiet and a time to
speak up. A time to love
and a time to hate. A time
for war and a time for peace.
Best wishes for continued ascendancy,
Dr. Howdy
P.S. One thing of which I am sure is
that the common culture of my youth
is gone for good. It was hollowed out
by the rise of ethnic "identity politics,"
then splintered beyond hope of repair
by the emergence of the web-based
technologies that so maximized and
facilitated cultural choice as to make
the broad-based offerings of the old
mass media look bland and unchallenging
by comparison."
"Goddess - A question: Do those who intend great malice comprehend the implications of their malice in the same way that you or I would comprehend them?"
Probably not. But again, it depends on the individual.
Thought and humor: I think you mean: A) people are different. True - but hopefully there are enough similarities that the world can figure out what they are and become a little less chaotic. B)people go throught different stages and processes, change over time. Also true, although through all this, certain qualities can remain amazingly stable. C) Thanks for agreeing with my compliment to my readers, but no, I'm not forgetting God. I didn't mean to suggest that I place my readers above God, lol! D) Not sure I follow your last paragraph. Thanks for the interesting commentary.
Goddess: You're hedging your bet, lol!
Good morning, Paul! It is my pleasure to inform you that your site has been nominated by your peers at the Order of Brilliant Bloggers for a “Brilliant” award for superior blogging this month. Congratulations!!! The Order of Brilliant Bloggers is a site dedicated to the recognition of excellent blogging by other excellent bloggers.
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Motherdear: Thanks. I wonder why my blog is in the "dramatic" category? I do appreciate it anyway, but maybe I can also try to write more... DRAMATICALLY...
What is sin anyway? Whatis sin to one man is not sin to another.
We only have to forgive ourself. For there is no other to forgive.
What is sin anyway? Whatis sin to one man is not sin to another.
We only have to forgive ourself. For there is no other to forgive.
Hi Shyloh: I think you've been very fortunate if you haven't had anyone but yourself to forgive.
Sounds like you're saying that the idea of sin has no meaning because people don't always agree on what sin is.
Although it's true there's not 100% agreement, I think the basic idea of sin is clear: that we can do wrong to others as well as ourselves. Harm-doing - this would be the essential meaning, whether or not one wants to use that particular word, "sin," which has overtones of belief systems that certainly not everyone agrees with.
Murder would be only the most obvious example of harm-doing over which there is pretty much universal agreement.
I'm not even sure that choice actually exists.
I may think that I'm laboring over a difficult moral decision, right vs. wrong. Finally, I make my "choice". But I can only do ONE thing. The notion that I *could* have done something else is there, but it's never materialized in reality. It's only in my mind as a concept.
After events have unfolded and the future has revealed itself, I can look back with regret and wish I had done things differently. Or I can take personal pride in having done the "right" thing. But at the time when the so called choice was made, I did the only thing I could do given my knowledge, abilities, spiritual development, etc.
I don't know that any of us ever could have done things differently. Thinking about things this way makes me want to reevaluate my ideas about fate and destiny: Concepts that I've always been resistant to in the past. Because if you take away choice, then it would seem that we have to impact on where we are headed. And I don't think that is the case.
Hmmmm. I guess I'm thinking out loud, here. But if choice doesn't actually exist then forgiveness becomes completely unecessary. All is forgiven before it happens. That's kind of cool. But I don't like the loss of free will that it implies.
What if there were something else besides choice - a willingness to turn towards God? A spirit of cooperation with Life, Nature - whatever your higher power of choice may be. Maybe that's how we impact the world? Is that a choice? I don't think so. More like a calling?
Lynne: Quite the philosopher now, aren't we? (In the interest of full disclosure, Lynne is my baby sister, as you can plainly see from her photo. She's really very precocious.)
Your first couple paragraphs convince me. Very concise but I don't see any argument against your view here that the idea that we really choose at all is nothing we can know for sure. It's simply not possible to demonstrate that we really could have done anything different at that time. You can't go back and do it differently to prove it! And simply having the feeling that you could have acted differently - that's no proof...
Why some of us experience a more powerful calling toward God, goodness, justice... if in reality, the situation is this, and not choice... I don't know...
I think labels play a very big part in this universe. Sort of the name it clam it type things. If we can just stop judging, Then perhaps the world will be a better place.
If one dies no matter how they die, to me it is their time to part.
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