Forgiveness: “Case by Casers” and “Free Gracers.” Post #2
I think I see an overall pattern to most of your comments. I’m just going to present the pattern here, without necessarily saying whose comments belong in what category. Most of you will “know who you are...”
The “Case by Casers”: Many of you seem to want to take a case by case approach to forgiving others. Whether you can forgive depends on certain variables. Major variables include how large the offense is; whether the offenses have ceased or are ongoing; and whether the transgressor repents. In some cases you can forgive; in others you can’t.
I’ll add that I think these variables affect everyone’s thinking in certain situations. For example, I can think of an occasion in my life where the individual apologized in such a sincere, meaningful way, and never again gave me the least offense, that my feelings were changed in an instant. I’m not even so sure you can call it forgiveness. The person had so clearly changed that to have clung to my anger would have been like trying to stay mad at a ghost.
The Free Gracers: Others of you seek a “unified field theory” – the Albert Einsteins of the forgiveness world! I’d like a UFT myself, but so far I’m no Einstein. In other words, free gracers want a way to forgive any and all transgressors.
Why? I think essentially because of something a number of you have pointed out or suggested: keeping those embers of blame or condemnation alive usually causes harm only to ourselves. It keeps us agitated, subtracting from our peace of mind. Unless we can forgive sins freely, then we ourselves are, so to speak, left at the mercy of those worst cases in which an individual has harmed us severely, has not changed his or her attitude, and apparently or in fact couldn’t care less about it. We remain in a state of turmoil. They get on with their lives.
Some of you have proposed some “free grace methods”: for example, not judging, and recognizing that we ourselves are flawed too, and have sometimes committed transgressions. But I know something in me wants to say: “But what that person did to me is much worse and less justified than anything I ever did to anyone else!” I keep going back to “case by case...”
So I guess I’d be interested if any of the free gracers have found a free grace method that not only sounds reasonable, but has really worked for you in situations of major transgression, and allowed you to feel – what? Love of the transgressor? Some simple lack of condemnation that’s emotionally neutral? What does it feel like?
Religion and Forgiveness: Two people brought the Bible into the discussion. As I find is often the case, you can find a basis in the Bible for more than one point of view.
Someone in the “Changes” section (btw, I changed the topic there to “forgiveness”) cited that verse about forgiving those who offend us “seventy times seven,” by which Jesus meant: forgive endlessly. Seems to make him a “free gracer.” On the other hand, someone else remarked that God requires us to repent before forgiving us for our sins. So God the Father is a case by caser but the Son is a free gracer? Gee, maybe God himself is having trouble with this one. If that's true, how on earth are we supposed to figure it out?? (You don't have to take me seriously on this last point, I'm mainly just trying to get myself off the hook...)
The “Case by Casers”: Many of you seem to want to take a case by case approach to forgiving others. Whether you can forgive depends on certain variables. Major variables include how large the offense is; whether the offenses have ceased or are ongoing; and whether the transgressor repents. In some cases you can forgive; in others you can’t.
I’ll add that I think these variables affect everyone’s thinking in certain situations. For example, I can think of an occasion in my life where the individual apologized in such a sincere, meaningful way, and never again gave me the least offense, that my feelings were changed in an instant. I’m not even so sure you can call it forgiveness. The person had so clearly changed that to have clung to my anger would have been like trying to stay mad at a ghost.
The Free Gracers: Others of you seek a “unified field theory” – the Albert Einsteins of the forgiveness world! I’d like a UFT myself, but so far I’m no Einstein. In other words, free gracers want a way to forgive any and all transgressors.
Why? I think essentially because of something a number of you have pointed out or suggested: keeping those embers of blame or condemnation alive usually causes harm only to ourselves. It keeps us agitated, subtracting from our peace of mind. Unless we can forgive sins freely, then we ourselves are, so to speak, left at the mercy of those worst cases in which an individual has harmed us severely, has not changed his or her attitude, and apparently or in fact couldn’t care less about it. We remain in a state of turmoil. They get on with their lives.
Some of you have proposed some “free grace methods”: for example, not judging, and recognizing that we ourselves are flawed too, and have sometimes committed transgressions. But I know something in me wants to say: “But what that person did to me is much worse and less justified than anything I ever did to anyone else!” I keep going back to “case by case...”
So I guess I’d be interested if any of the free gracers have found a free grace method that not only sounds reasonable, but has really worked for you in situations of major transgression, and allowed you to feel – what? Love of the transgressor? Some simple lack of condemnation that’s emotionally neutral? What does it feel like?
Religion and Forgiveness: Two people brought the Bible into the discussion. As I find is often the case, you can find a basis in the Bible for more than one point of view.
Someone in the “Changes” section (btw, I changed the topic there to “forgiveness”) cited that verse about forgiving those who offend us “seventy times seven,” by which Jesus meant: forgive endlessly. Seems to make him a “free gracer.” On the other hand, someone else remarked that God requires us to repent before forgiving us for our sins. So God the Father is a case by caser but the Son is a free gracer? Gee, maybe God himself is having trouble with this one. If that's true, how on earth are we supposed to figure it out?? (You don't have to take me seriously on this last point, I'm mainly just trying to get myself off the hook...)
posted by Paul @ 10:38 AM
27 Comments:
Off-topic:
I adjusted the spam filter settings on my new blog. You shouldn't have any trouble posting now and I recovered your comment.
Thanks, Paul :)
I just want to point out that in the same section of the Bible Jesus makes both the requirements to forgive people endlessly and the need for the offending party to repent (Luke 17:3-4). How can that be? Will Jesus expects His followers to have an attitude of forgiveness, that is to treat people with respect while not be clouded by anger and resentment, but for forgiveness to mean anything it has to be asked for and accepted by the offender.
In other words the people who brought in the Bible most likely used the same portion of Scripture, but focused on different aspects of what Jesus said.
My dad abandoned me when I was four years old. My insecurities, my mistrust of men... so many bad qualities were born out of this pain.
I used to hate him because of it. But he has been completely forgiven. It happened because of free grace as opposed to some special Dad-specific method where I forgave him, personally, for his wrong-doing.
Everyone's damaged to some degree. That's unfortunate. Especially when you recognize that damage breeds more damage.
I think our job is to stop perpetuating our damage as much as possible. I don't think we can do that by "choosing" not to do evil. But if we 1) accept what we can't change, 2) recognize that everyone is damaged to some extent but doing their best, and 3) see that there isn't nearly as much choice available to us as we would like to think, then forgiveness happens automatically.
Another example from this past weekend: I went on a trip to NY with a buddy of mine. We've been good friends for many years. On this trip, she made two bigoted comments -- one a slur against Latinos, and another a stereotype against Jews. I had no idea that she was capable of this. I was stunned.
In the past, I probably would have written her off on the spot and felt very angry and frustrated at her display of ignorance. I would have told her off and never called her again. I would have felt personally betrayed.
Instead, once I got over the shock, I just felt a bit sad. She's still my friend, and she's doing the best she can. It's just not very good in this area. I haven't "written her off," but I will probably spend less time with her, because I get depressed by people with her attitude. I think I will probably talk to her about it the next time I see her, just to point out to her how she sounded (because she can't possibly be aware). But she's forgiven - it happened automatically and in the moment when I realized she is what she is. Maybe I can help her, maybe I can't. But in either case, free grace strikes again.
Now if someone lynched my mother because they didn't like the color of her skin, then I might have difficulty in that moment with forgiveness -- but it would be due to a lack of acceptance of what happened. Once there's acceptance, then there could be forgiveness. I don't think it ever happens any other way.
Interesting blog, I find it hard to read, because I find it hard to think on God. Just the same, interesting blog.
-Justin
Is dificil for me to write in English. Excuseme. I read his blog with "Babel Fish", to me very interesting. Thanks.
Desde Chile un saludo.
God is good.
everyone wants to be a "Free gracer", it would make them so much purer in their own eyes as well as God's to have no grudge in their hearts, however, realistically, it is not that easily applied. i guess a "free gracer" now has probably never been in a horrible situation, we all have our thresholds, that is what i believe. and also as they say"we all have a price".
i remember a story about forgiveness, a story about something that is supposedly going to happen on judgement day:
2 people are before God, where one has done the other injustice in this world, and God lets the offended take from the offender's good deeds as much as the offense was worth, then it was shown that the offender's good deeds were indeed depleted. none were left. so the offended said: ok, take from my sins and give them to him.
(he was not forgiving of this even on Judgement day, and God being just, would not deny the offended his right, if he does not want to forgive it is his choice)
anyway, God would tell him , look yonder there, what do you see? and he sees a mighty palace and riches that was so vast and grand in heaven. and he asks God: for who is this great reward?
and GOd tells him it is for who has or can pay the price. and the man says in wonder: and who would have the price of such a thing? the reply: it is you who have the ability to have it, the price is your forgiveness of your brother.
and the man would say: yes yes i forgive him. and they are both told to take each other's hand and enter heaven.
sorry long story, but the thing is, it is sometimes so hard, that is why we need motivation other than just not hurting our selves by bitterness. man is so puishment/reward oriented and we have our ambitious natures, and then when promised a reward that is bigger than the offense, we are tempted to take it, forgive when we can, and we know that our rights are not squandered by such forgiveness, our compensation is guaranteed.
this is why this topic is difficult for me, i know this, and i know God will compensate me if i forgive, and yet there is a certain situation that i am unable to forgive, it indeed is a dark cloud in my life to have a grudge against someone. ISA one day God will give me the blessing of a cleaner heart, and even this will be over one way or the other.
btw paul i answered your comment on my blog. sorry if i seem agressive discussing that specific topic, but this is an ongoing bleeding wound in all our hearts, and is one example of something that i can not forgive.
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I always think of forgiveness as process...as something that is ongoing the more we live our own lives and mature. Forgiveness is different at different times.
It would be wonderful to be a Free Gracer and have it actually work. More often than not, I hear people say they forgive someone--yet are doing so thru grit teeth. They are compelled to forgive by others, and follow the axiom of "act as if," hoping that if they follow the commands of others they will eventually "get it."
We can forgive someone, yet still wrestle with the demons that the injury we have forgiven has left behind. Forgiveness is a spiritual state which doesn't necessarily alleviate the psychological dammage of a transgression, but it does lighten the load. Once forgivness has taken place, strategies for alleviating the psychological difficulties can begin. It's a subtle balance that, I think, few truly get or understand, even if they have God in their lives.
I agree with Lynn...
**Once there's acceptance, then there could be forgiveness...
Acceptance is the key word...
Keshi.
I have read poem and writing ...I was so touched how brave she was....
I am in need of such a strategy I guess. Problem is... I understand and accept the wrong doings of my father but I don´t seem to want to forgive. It´s like he just never existed, a total stranger. Yet I know that if I met him again my attitude would not be a forgiving one. And then again it´s very unlikely to meet him again.
It´s totally different with mom. I forgave her even before she started doing anything...
The only thing that makes me still think I should forgive is the incredible feeling I had when I was forgiven. It was so deep that I realized how wonderful it is to receive a new start, even if you mess up 10 times after that. Or 7 times 7. I think everybody deserves that. Even my father. Even if he won´t realize he is forgiven or that it matters in any way.
I agree with some of those who said that people can´t just forget about the hurt. I know that even if I forgive my father I couldn´t possibly start behaving as he had been there for me all along. It´s impossible. What we need to do is clean up the memories that we want to keep as lessons and experience, to clean them from anger and judgement and blame. It is a way of letting go. I would be thrilled to be able to let go of the hurt and the guilt and the lack of confidence I had to go through.
Very interesting way of setting them apart. The groups are very distinctly different from each other. I wonder if people fall in between too.
Thanks goddess.
Paul Bilbo, appreciate your input. And that's certainly the ideal: forgiveness and repentence both.
Justin, great. And don't ever hesitate to "add your two cents" if you feel like it. Most of this is about our own experiences, no degree in theology required...
by ojo, thanks for your efforts with Babel Fish. That thing is useful, but also it's hard! It sometimes makes funny mistakes.
Thanks, A, I was glad when I thought of it that way myself, because for a while I had no idea how to fit all the comments together.
Nasra, yeah, that's my initial reaction to Poems and Writing too.
But as to the content of her remarks and everyone else I haven't responded to here, I'm going to have to think about all that for next post... Complicated...
Doshar, just one thing, on that second comment of yours: I "forgive" you! But that was an easy one, I could just fall back on my old position - no offense was ever taken...
I'm glad you've delved into this subject, Paul. Before this, I would have said I was a "free gracer" but I'm realizing that I really don't understand forgiveness and probably have forgiven not at all. Maybe that's the first step, for me, of figuring out how to do it.
I am going to cheat a little and repost a comment I made on Matt's blog about forgiveness--hope those of you who read it there will forgive me!
I am in awe of people who can forgive thoroughly and completely. A few years ago I saw a show about two couples who had lost a child to murder. The one couple hated the murderer--all the way up to and including his execution, which they attended. The other couple slowly began to develop a relationship with the murderer. First, they wrote to him, then they began visiting him. In the end they not only forgave the murderer but came to love him and were instrumental in changing his life (much like the Pope who forgave the man who shot him).
What especially struck me at the end of the program was the difference between the two couples. The nonforgivers were very sickly, could barely walk and were filled with hatred even after the murderer had been killed. The forgivers were filled with joy and peace and were an inspiration to many, including myself.
Now in the case of the forgiven murderer, he admitted his wrong doing and asked for forgiveness. It is always more difficult to forgive someone who won't admit to a fault and doesn't repent. (I believe we are asked to forgive these people as well but that doesn't mean we have to allow ourselves to be hurt by them again.)
I'm still learning how to forgive, but two things help me when forgiveness is required. First, I remember something Jack Kornfield wrote in "A Path with Heart." He said the first step toward forgiveness is the desire to forgive. He suggests saying, "I am willing to forgive." Or even, "I am willing to want to forgive." I usually can't get to this point until after I have felt and expressed my feelings. Sometimes I do this by writing in my journal and talking to friends. If the circumstances permit (which they often do not), I speak to the person who has hurt me directly. When direct communication is not possible or wise, I talk to their souls (usually by writing letters in my journal which I will never send).
I haven't needed to use this last option yet, but I keep in my heart in case the unforgivable happens to me. In one of her books, Catherine Marshall tells the story of Holocaust survivor Corrie ten Boom. After the war (during which she had been imprisoned and her sister had been killed), Corrie went around Germany giving talks on God's forgiveness and loving your enemies. At the end of one of her lectures, a former Nazi officer, who had been one of her captors in the concentration camp, came up to her. He said mockingly, "Oh, fraulein, it is so good to know all has been forgiven."
At the moment, Corrie realized she could not forgive the man, but she knew God could, so she prayed: "Lord, I can't do this. Give me Your forgiveness."
Suddenly, she felt an overwhelming sense of peace and love fill her heart. With that Corrie stuck out her hand and genuinely greeted the man who had once imprisoned and raped her.
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I said I was in awe of people who are capable of that level of forgiveness because I don't think I would be. I've been wondering what sort of things people like that must believe in order to perform such an act? I would think they must have felt bitterness, rage and hatred, etc. at some point but then moved passed it somehow.
I'm sure you're right - I deleted because I realized I was speaking more from the bad day I've had than any philosophical perspective :-)
there are some deep comments on here. I can't begin to think on some of these issues. like emilyjane I am just as in awe of those who can forgive like that. a little anger wells up in me just as I read other peoples stories against the ones who hurt them. much less people who have offended me.
but I have seen a common thread in just about all the posts, and I'm sure you see it too Paul but I didn't see you mention it.
time is a key ingredient to true forgiveness.
To All: will try to bring this together somehow in today's post. Sounds like I'm not the only one who finds this a complicated one...
hi, nice concept & blog, Paul.
Forgivness? Hmm. I guess, what first comes to mind, is what is the goal of striving to be forgiving?
I don't see that I have the power to truely forgive a person. I can certainly, usually set the hurt aside. Given time, of course. But, inevitably (sic) there is a residue left over that colors my attitude and feeling towards "that" person.
I don't really understand the ideas "case by caser" or "free gracers", but I suppose if thats all there is then I must be one type :)
I see forgiveness, true forgivness, being not from my own self. I have do responsibility to review, reflect, and act upon what I think "I" know. But, to err is human I hear...
What I have noticed, in the path that I tred, is that after assesing a situation with proper reflection and taking what action may or may not be appropriate, I find that what feelings I may have found to be, at that moment, so important and devestating, seem to melt away after a while and the "i" that i was soo concered about no longer appears to remain...
If "I" am not the same person moment by moment, than who is there to be hurt?
Kevin: Interesting comment, thanks for posting. Put it this way... If you could hang onto that "melting away," you'd be a "free gracer." Also maybe a saint or even another "Buddha" (awakened one...)
very interesting and educate people about the bible.....
my husband abondoned me and my 2 kids recently and i dont know if i can forgive him for that matter....
Eden: Unfortunately, that seems to be a very common situation. It's a tough one, and it typically is the man who leaves. I think it's so hard for women to forgive because it involves harm to their children as well as themselves.
I try to be a free gracer. And with alot of things, it's very possible. But sometimes I find it really hard not to forgive others. But in a very buddhist way, I think of how others mean/hurtful actions are helping to make me a better person... how these experiences are shaping me into who I want to be, who I need to be... it helps to be able to accept their actions (as Lynne said) and also to be grateful to them for their actions, however hurtful they were at the time.
Also, accepting that you are human and sometimes you just need some time to cool down before you can think clearly after a grevious offense. I don't think that to be a free gracer, you have to do it in the moment.
And, as my husband says, "Forgiveness is not Forgetting". You can be past the anger and hate and hurt, but still not be stupid enough to put yourself back into the situation where the unrepentant person can hurt you again. Life is about learning, and the more you accept what you've "learned" from offensive experiences, the more you know what situations to just avoid.
Miriam
Miriam: I think one reason this is such a complicated topic is the different situations people can get that make the various "coping stragegies" sometimes work and sometimes not. Which is why I'd like a "unified field theory," a way of free gracing that wouldn't require so much case by casing analysis.
For example, it's possible to be on the receiving end of actions so destructive to you, physically, that you simply can't conclude "it was for the best" overall, I'm now a better person for it - even though that's a great strategy for a lot of life's negatives, and one I've used too.
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